From: Darryl Munro (Darryl.Munro@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx)
Date: Tue Apr 30 2002 - 20:14:35 GMT-3
I haven't sat my Lab yet, and when I do and if I pass I don't think that I
will bother mentioning it in this list. The fact that so many people have
responded with criticism of the original e-mail is testament that people
deserve respect when they take so much time out of any normal life to
achieve what is to be considered the toughest "cert" on the books.
I had almost lost faith in the fact that this group was there to support
other people in the attainment of the CCIE, not a place to burn someone for
simply stating and thanking people for the help and support to get him
there.
The only way to keep what people think is diluting the CCIE cert from
happening is to keep it real and encourage those people that want to take
the time and make the effort to get the CCIE.
I don't disagree that "experience" is important; however this should be
"experience" in context. It is also a case of chicken and egg, which one
came first......
The immense amount of information that needs to be taken in to even get
anywhere near understanding the "Cisco" world deserves respect in the first
place, as this demonstrates and commitment and desire to be regarded as an
"Expert" in their chosen field.
The other certs that you may attain along the way are a good starting point
for something bigger and are necessary to help you learn and gain
"experience" along the way.
If those of you that are claiming experience is everything could please
define experience from your standpoint then you may be able to justify your
bagging of some one who innocently reported their success on the Lab.
"Experience" is certainly open to interpretation and does it or should it
include things like knowledge of Business Process, the ability to deal with
end users, IT Staff and or Management, and any other manner of things that a
person is presented with. "Experience" is totally and only related to the
current task at hand. Please do not take any of this as a solid point of
view on my part as it is intended to encourage intelligent thought on the
subject at hand. We are all intelligent people and should behave so, let the
un-intelligent ones out there keep trying to defeat the things that we put
in place to protect the networks that we maintain and look after. Remember
that to be better than the hacker that is trying to pervade the privacy of
the network that we tasked with maintaining then we must have more
intelligence and a willingness to share with each other our successes and
failures. Obviously this is not the only thing that we may be tasked with as
we also need to make traffic go in the right direction, while maintaining
levels of service to the user's network while also keeping it real for
ourselves, there are many things that need to be considered when looking at
a network, but do we all have the necessary skill to KNOW ABSOLUTELY
EVERYTHING, and if you think you do then give up as you can not be any
better.
Without failures there would never be successes.
Oh well that is off my chest, rather long winded for my first post, as I
have just been taking if some of the really valuable information that is
coming through in this list, lets keep it coming.
Darryl Munro
CNE, MCSE, CCNP, CCDP, CCEA
Systems Consultant
Computerland NZ
14-16 College Hill
PO Box 3631, Auckland
Phone: 09 360 5800, Fax: 09 378 0839
Darryl <mailto:darryl.munro@computerland.co.nz> Munro
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Well. If it's a decision to choose between a CCIE with 3 years experience
and a non-CCIE with 3 years experience I will choose a CCIE. Everyone knows
the USA and Canada, of which I've worked in both. are BIG on certs. But I
won't choose a CCIE because he/she is a CCIE but because the CCIE has gone
through the gruelling process to pass the CCIE. And that in itself takes
smarts, patience and dedication; all of which are the quite admirable traits
I am looking for.
Technical Manager; CNR
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Rosenthal" <perosenthal@hotmail.com>
To: "Mingzhou Nie" <mnie@yahoo.com>; "Sean Wu" <vpivci@yahoo.com>; "thomas
larus" <tlarus@mwc.edu>; <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 4:28 PM
Subject: Re: CCIE #9240
> So you're saying that QoS, Voice, etc is harder than Appletalk,
> DecNet,
ATM
> LANE, and other topics that have been removed? Your argument is quite
> flawed. Newer CCIE's generally have more relavent "lab" knowledge
> because older technologies have since been replaced. But back in 96
> or 97 you didn't hear about some secretary becoming a CCIE after only
> 18 months of "experience." That's because back then there wasn't all
> the available training, books, bootcamps, NDA violations galore on
> lists like this, etc. Back then people had to rely on real EXPERIENCE.
> We can argue this all
day.
> The fact remains that the average new CCIE has FAR less REAL
> experience
than
> the older ones.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mingzhou Nie" <mnie@yahoo.com>
> To: "Sean Wu" <vpivci@yahoo.com>; "'Peter Rosenthal'"
> <perosenthal@hotmail.com>; "thomas larus" <tlarus@mwc.edu>;
> <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 4:20 PM
> Subject: RE: CCIE #9240
>
>
> > I don't agree, Sean. Do you know what had been tested in 1996/7.
> > There's no voice, not Qos, no new techs that has since been added. I
> > won't ever thing earlier CCIEs are better technically.
> >
> >
> > --- Sean Wu <vpivci@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > Peter, I agree with you in that experience is important to this
> > > field, and most network managers tend to think in the same way.
> > > But what about
> > > the quality of experience, in my mind, 2 years' experience with
> > > intensive cisco hands-on is much more valuable than 5 years' first
> > > level
> > > network support.
> > >
> > > Also it is natural to see devaluation of CCIE cert these days. The
> > > devaluation is not only about the certification, it is about the
> > > career. The career to be a network administrator, no matter how
> > > senior you are,
> > > isn't exicting at all. Following others' tail all my life will drive
> > > me
> > > crazy. But what else can I do as a network administrator? Nothing.
> > >
> > > I respect those CCIEs with small numbers, because they can get it
> > > QUICK and without much help from bootcamps. Those smart people
> > > already got most out of their certs, and moved on to other area
> > > before it cools down
> > > completely.
> > >
> > > So what is next HOT field? Maybe "DNA Certified Bio-Tech Expert"?
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Peter Rosenthal [mailto:perosenthal@hotmail.com
<mailto:perosenthal@hotmail.com> ]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 2:10 PM
> > > To: thomas larus; ccielab@groupstudy.com
> > > Subject: Re: CCIE #9240
> > >
> > >
> > > I see your point, but you are greatly exagerrating what I am
> > > saying. Sure he would be allowed in my data center. But, only
> > > under close supervision as
> > > an apprentice. He certainly would not have uncontrolled access and
> > > that
> > > is
> > > what I meant. I would not require someone to spend years doing
> > > cabling.
> > > I
> > > do not even know what his prior experience is. It would make a HUGE
> > > difference if he spent the last 10 years doing Unix and NT
> > > administration at
> > > a high level or any IT job for that matter. In that case then sure
> > > he
> > > would
> > > be allowed to work on the network with a lot less supervision. But,
> > > if
> > > he's
> > > a 22 yr old that just graduated college and decided to become a CCIE
> > > a
> > > year
> > > later then he's still a lab rat that needs to put in his time. Even
> > > Cisco
> > > recommends a minimum of 2 years experience prior to taking the lab.
> > > Personally, I think someone should have at least 3-4 years of Cisco
> > > experience. Clearly the number of people passing with less than 2
> > > years
> > > experience is growing by the day and I'm sure that trend will
> > > continue
> > > until
> > > it's something that high school kids start obtaining.
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "thomas larus" <tlarus@mwc.edu>
> > > To: <ccielab@groupstudy.com>; <perosenthal@hotmail.com>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 12:07 PM
> > > Subject: Re: CCIE #9240
> > >
> > >
> > > "However, I know that no "Junior CCIE" or lab rat with a few
> > > months experience is even going to get a badge to get in my data
> > > center let alone be responsible for one of my networks."
> > > <p>
> > > Of course you should not make someone who is just really, really good
> > > at
> > > learning this material the chief of your entire network, but you
> > > would
> > > not
> > > even give him a badge to get into your data center to apprentice as a
> > > junior
> > > network engineer. That's just plain offensive. No I guess he needs
> > > to
> > > pay
> > > his dues. He needs to avoid getting his CCIE until he has spent the
> > > requisite 4 years doing physical wiring, changing out the backup
> > > tapes,
> > > ghosting PCs. Then, you will let him get his CCNA and work for
> > > another
> > > four years doing whatever you consider appropriate CCNA-level work.
> > > Then,
> > > after eight years, you would permit him to start studying for the
> > > CCIE,
> > > I
> > > guess.
> > >
> > > I really admire the folks who learned their networking by many
> > > years of
> > > hard work in, say the military, doing everything from running wire,
> > > programming, setting up radios to making the ATM network run right.
> > > This,
> > > in my view, is an optimal way to build a networking career. Many of
> > > these
> > > people were underpaid for many years, and it is beautiful to see them
> > > finally rewarded for all their hard-work.
> > > <p>
> > > But some of us did not come to it that way. Some of us had the
> > > misfortune
> > > of spending years in graduate school or in some other challenging
> > > field
> > > when
> > > we could have been racking up years of experience in computer
> > > networking.
> > > Perhaps such a career-changer might not be the equal of someone with
> > > 20
> > > years of experience, but he should not even be permitted into your
> > > data
> > > center, even though he has proven that he can learn VERY difficult
> > > material
> > > through intensive study and unpaid hands-on experience.
> > >
> > > I left a job in a dying internet data center dot com to
> > > concentrate on my
> > > ccie studies, because I found that after a certain point in some
> > > "industry"
> > > jobs there are diminishing marginal returns in terms of what you
> > > learn
> > > after
> > > a certain point. If I had looked for another "industry" job at that
> > > time, I
> > > would not have found anything that would have permitted me to learn
> > > what
> > > I
> > > have learned in the last nine months or so.
> > >
> > >
> > > Peter Rosenthal" <perosenthal@hotmail.com> 04/30/02 11:18 AM >>>
> > > Completely agree with Rob about the dog comment. Although unless
> > > the lab becomes a Sylvan test it will never become like the MCSE
> > > or any other written test. However, I know that no "Junior CCIE"
> > > or lab rat with a
> > > few
> > > months experience is even going to get a badge to get in my data
> > > center
> > > let
> > > alone be responsible for one of my networks. Anyone that lets
> > > someone
> > > with
> > > 16 months experience run their network is simply asking for trouble.
> > > No
> > > matter how smart a person is you can't possibly obtain the necessary
> > > experience to run a complex multiprotocol network in that amount of
> > > time.
> > >
> > > This is not the last we are going to here of this sort of thing.
> > > There will
> > > be plenty more stories of "janitor to CCIE" or "secretary to CCIE"
> > > (already
> > > saw this one and laughed quite a bit) in the span of a few months.
> > > Schools
> > > will crop up all over the place advertising get your CCIE in 6
> > > months.
> > > The
> > > CCIE program will once again adapt to the "demand" of people wanting
> > > to
> > > take
> > > the test and make some other dramatic change to funnel us in and out
> > > of
> > > the
> > > exam as quickly as possible while comprising its integrity. Don't be
> > > surprised if someday the exam is the point, select and click either
> > > A,
> > > B, C,
> > > or D for the right answer. But hey that's fine. The CCIE will
> > > someday
> > > be
> > > replaced just as all the great certs before it. It was a fun ride
> > > while
> > > it
> > > lasted, but its almost over. Hope you guys enjoyed the ride!
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Robert Carter" <Robert.Carter2@telus.com>
> > > To: <ccielab@groupstud.com>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 9:23 AM
> > > Subject: RE: CCIE #9240
> > >
> > >
> > > > Oh boy. I'm gona get some hate mail for this but...
> > > >
> > >
> > === message truncated ===
> >
> >
> > =====
> > - | |
> > :|||: :|||:
> > :|||||||: :|||||||:
> > .:|||||||||||:.:|||||||||||:.
> > C i s c o S y s t e m s
> > www.cisco.com/tac
> > Empowering the Internet Generation
> >
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