From: kris.keen@xxxxxxxxxx
Date: Tue Apr 30 2002 - 20:16:33 GMT-3
Here Here!
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Kris Keen - CNE, CCNA, CCNP
Network Support Specialist - Network Systems
Aon Risk Services Australia Limited
(612) 9253 7272
0404862970
E: Kris.Keen@aon.com.au
Jason Sinclair
<sinclairj@powert To: ccielab@groupstudy.com
el.com.au> cc:
Sent by: bcc:
nobody@groupstudy Subject: RE: CCIE #9240
.com
01/05/2002 08:48
AM
Please respond to
Jason Sinclair
Firstly, to Munib, congratulations!
Secondly, what a crock of horseshit!! Why did you all bother doing it if it
is worthless. It really pisses me off that some of you work to achieve your
goals and then bag others who achieve it. I have 8 years experience in
networking, and a CCIE. I also employ staff in this field and manage an
entire operations centre. My theory is that you check the guy or gal you
are
hiring and see what they know. CCIE proves some things and experience
proves
others. Quit all this crap about CCIE going downhill, CCIE not going
downhill, etc. How about you focus on your studies and forget this shit.
Remember, getting the CCIE does not mean you know it all, and neither does
experience.
Jason Sinclair CCIE #9100
Manager, Network Support Group
POWERTEL
Ground Level, 55 Clarence Street,
SYDNEY NSW 2000
AUSTRALIA
office: + 61 2 8264 3820
mobile: + 61 416 105 858
* sinclairj@powertel.com.au
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Rosenthal [mailto:perosenthal@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, 1 May 2002 04:10
To: thomas larus; ccielab@groupstudy.com
Subject: Re: CCIE #9240
I see your point, but you are greatly exagerrating what I am
saying. Sure
he would be allowed in my data center. But, only under
close supervision as
an apprentice. He certainly would not have uncontrolled
access and that is
what I meant. I would not require someone to spend years
doing cabling. I
do not even know what his prior experience is. It would
make a HUGE
difference if he spent the last 10 years doing Unix and NT
administration at
a high level or any IT job for that matter. In that case
then sure he would
be allowed to work on the network with a lot less
supervision. But, if he's
a 22 yr old that just graduated college and decided to
become a CCIE a year
later then he's still a lab rat that needs to put in his
time. Even Cisco
recommends a minimum of 2 years experience prior to taking
the lab.
Personally, I think someone should have at least 3-4 years
of Cisco
experience. Clearly the number of people passing with less
than 2 years
experience is growing by the day and I'm sure that trend
will continue until
it's something that high school kids start obtaining.
----- Original Message -----
From: "thomas larus" <tlarus@mwc.edu>
To: <ccielab@groupstudy.com>; <perosenthal@hotmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 12:07 PM
Subject: Re: CCIE #9240
"However, I know that no "Junior CCIE" or lab rat with a few
months
experience is even going to get a badge to get in my data
center let alone
be responsible for one of my networks."
<p>
Of course you should not make someone who is just really,
really good at
learning this material the chief of your entire network, but
you would not
even give him a badge to get into your data center to
apprentice as a junior
network engineer. That's just plain offensive. No I guess
he needs to pay
his dues. He needs to avoid getting his CCIE until he has
spent the
requisite 4 years doing physical wiring, changing out the
backup tapes,
ghosting PCs. Then, you will let him get his CCNA and work
for another
four years doing whatever you consider appropriate
CCNA-level work. Then,
after eight years, you would permit him to start studying
for the CCIE, I
guess.
I really admire the folks who learned their networking by
many years of
hard work in, say the military, doing everything from
running wire,
programming, setting up radios to making the ATM network run
right. This,
in my view, is an optimal way to build a networking career.
Many of these
people were underpaid for many years, and it is beautiful to
see them
finally rewarded for all their hard-work.
<p>
But some of us did not come to it that way. Some of us had
the misfortune
of spending years in graduate school or in some other
challenging field when
we could have been racking up years of experience in
computer networking.
Perhaps such a career-changer might not be the equal of
someone with 20
years of experience, but he should not even be permitted
into your data
center, even though he has proven that he can learn VERY
difficult material
through intensive study and unpaid hands-on experience.
I left a job in a dying internet data center dot com to
concentrate on my
ccie studies, because I found that after a certain point in
some "industry"
jobs there are diminishing marginal returns in terms of what
you learn after
a certain point. If I had looked for another "industry" job
at that time, I
would not have found anything that would have permitted me
to learn what I
have learned in the last nine months or so.
Peter Rosenthal" <perosenthal@hotmail.com> 04/30/02 11:18 AM
>>>
Completely agree with Rob about the dog comment. Although
unless the lab
becomes a Sylvan test it will never become like the MCSE or
any other
written test. However, I know that no "Junior CCIE" or lab
rat with a few
months experience is even going to get a badge to get in my
data center let
alone be responsible for one of my networks. Anyone that
lets someone with
16 months experience run their network is simply asking for
trouble. No
matter how smart a person is you can't possibly obtain the
necessary
experience to run a complex multiprotocol network in that
amount of time.
This is not the last we are going to here of this sort of
thing. There will
be plenty more stories of "janitor to CCIE" or "secretary to
CCIE" (already
saw this one and laughed quite a bit) in the span of a few
months. Schools
will crop up all over the place advertising get your CCIE in
6 months. The
CCIE program will once again adapt to the "demand" of people
wanting to take
the test and make some other dramatic change to funnel us in
and out of the
exam as quickly as possible while comprising its integrity.
Don't be
surprised if someday the exam is the point, select and click
either A, B, C,
or D for the right answer. But hey that's fine. The CCIE
will someday be
replaced just as all the great certs before it. It was a
fun ride while it
lasted, but its almost over. Hope you guys enjoyed the
ride!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Carter" <Robert.Carter2@telus.com>
To: <ccielab@groupstud.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 9:23 AM
Subject: RE: CCIE #9240
> Oh boy. I'm gona get some hate mail for this but...
>
> This is clear proof that the CCIE is heading towards
MCSE-land. Here is
> another great example of someone who basically had their
CCIE bought for
> them. What happed to experience? This person has hardly
seen a router 16
> months ago! What does this say about the future of the
CCIE? I have worked
> with a disturbingly large amount of CCIEs who
inadvertently trash the
> certification because they completely fail in real world
environments.
>
> With repetition and incentive you can teach any dog a
trick.
>
> Rob
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Church, Chuck [mailto:cchurch@USTA.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 7:52 AM
> To: 'Khan Munib'; 'ccielab@groupstudy.com'
> Subject: RE: CCIE #9240
>
>
> Kahn,
>
> Congratulations. It's a tough journey, without a doubt.
But your
> persistence paid off.
>
> P.S. The CCIE online store is now open, according to an
email I got the
> other day. Nice stuff they've got!
>
> Chuck Church
> Sr. Network Engineer
> CCIE #8776, MCNE, MCSE
> US Tennis Association
> 70 W. Red Oak Lane
> White Plains, NY 10604
> 914-696-7199
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nobody@groupstudy.com
[mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com]On Behalf Of
> Khan Munib
> Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 6:22 AM
> To: 'ccielab@groupstudy.com'
> Subject: CCIE #9240
>
>
> Well Finally it my turn to send this mail!!!!!
>
> Passed yesterday in Brussels (3rd attempt). I was
beginning to wonder if
I
> would ever get there. Firstly I would like to thank God
without who
nothing
> is possible. I would also like to thank my family for
their immense
support
> and patience.
>
> It's been a hectic 16 month Journey from Dec 2000 when I
attained my CCNA
> and was just getting into networking and had hardly seen a
cisco router.
I
> have learnt so much over the last year, when I look back I
cant believe
how
> far I've com. My company, Fujitsu (formerly ICL) has
given me excellent
> support and carried the bill for all my exam attempts etc.
I would also
> like to send a special Thank you to all at Netlogic
Consulting, They have
> guided me along the whole path through CCNA, NP and IE.
Their courses
were
> excellent and their after sales support proved invaluable
to me in getting
> prepared for the LAB. I would seriously recommend any of
you guys in the
> UK who are looking for a CCIE prep course to consider
them,
> www.netlogicconsulting.com, their lab scenarios were key
to me
understanding
> and learning all the different technologies.
>
> This list has also provided a great resource to find out
info for
> me.......Although I have been a relatively passive member
I have learnt a
> great deal from the discussions and also been greatly
amused by some of
the
> OT discussions. Keep up the hard work everyone and don't
give
> up.........everyone can get there in the end.
>
> This email is only for the use of its intended recipient.
Its contents are
> confidential and may be privileged. Fujitsu Services does
not guarantee
that
> this email has not been intercepted and amended or that it
is virus-free.
>
> Munib Ali Khan
> <<...OLE_Obj...>>
> Network Services
> Cavendish Road, Stevenage, Hertfordshire, SG1 2DY
> Tel: +44 (0) 870 234 8171 Internal: 7301 5515
> Mob: +44 (0) 7867 823214
> Fax: +44 (0) 870 234 9199 Internal: 7301 6531
> E-mail: Munib.Khan@services.fujitsu.com
> Web: services.fujitsu.com
>
> Fujitsu Services Limited, Registered In England no 96056,
Registered
Office
> 26, Finsbury Square, London, EC2A 1SL
>
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