From: DAve Diaz (ddiaz106@xxxxxxxxxxx)
Date: Tue Apr 30 2002 - 20:02:26 GMT-3
CCIE is on the way down no doubt about it, the economy doesn't help either
>From: Jason Sinclair <sinclairj@powertel.com.au>
>Reply-To: Jason Sinclair <sinclairj@powertel.com.au>
>To: ccielab@groupstudy.com
>Subject: RE: CCIE #9240
>Date: Wed, 1 May 2002 08:48:06 +1000
>
>Firstly, to Munib, congratulations!
>
>Secondly, what a crock of horseshit!! Why did you all bother doing it if it
>is worthless. It really pisses me off that some of you work to achieve your
>goals and then bag others who achieve it. I have 8 years experience in
>networking, and a CCIE. I also employ staff in this field and manage an
>entire operations centre. My theory is that you check the guy or gal you
>are
>hiring and see what they know. CCIE proves some things and experience
>proves
>others. Quit all this crap about CCIE going downhill, CCIE not going
>downhill, etc. How about you focus on your studies and forget this shit.
>
>Remember, getting the CCIE does not mean you know it all, and neither does
>experience.
>
>Jason Sinclair CCIE #9100
>Manager, Network Support Group
>POWERTEL
>Ground Level, 55 Clarence Street,
>SYDNEY NSW 2000
>AUSTRALIA
>office: + 61 2 8264 3820
>mobile: + 61 416 105 858
>* sinclairj@powertel.com.au
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Peter Rosenthal [mailto:perosenthal@hotmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, 1 May 2002 04:10
> To: thomas larus; ccielab@groupstudy.com
> Subject: Re: CCIE #9240
>
> I see your point, but you are greatly exagerrating what I am
>saying. Sure
> he would be allowed in my data center. But, only under
>close supervision as
> an apprentice. He certainly would not have uncontrolled
>access and that is
> what I meant. I would not require someone to spend years
>doing cabling. I
> do not even know what his prior experience is. It would
>make a HUGE
> difference if he spent the last 10 years doing Unix and NT
>administration at
> a high level or any IT job for that matter. In that case
>then sure he would
> be allowed to work on the network with a lot less
>supervision. But, if he's
> a 22 yr old that just graduated college and decided to
>become a CCIE a year
> later then he's still a lab rat that needs to put in his
>time. Even Cisco
> recommends a minimum of 2 years experience prior to taking
>the lab.
> Personally, I think someone should have at least 3-4 years
>of Cisco
> experience. Clearly the number of people passing with less
>than 2 years
> experience is growing by the day and I'm sure that trend
>will continue until
> it's something that high school kids start obtaining.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "thomas larus" <tlarus@mwc.edu>
> To: <ccielab@groupstudy.com>; <perosenthal@hotmail.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 12:07 PM
> Subject: Re: CCIE #9240
>
>
> "However, I know that no "Junior CCIE" or lab rat with a few
>months
> experience is even going to get a badge to get in my data
>center let alone
> be responsible for one of my networks."
> <p>
> Of course you should not make someone who is just really,
>really good at
> learning this material the chief of your entire network, but
>you would not
> even give him a badge to get into your data center to
>apprentice as a junior
> network engineer. That's just plain offensive. No I guess
>he needs to pay
> his dues. He needs to avoid getting his CCIE until he has
>spent the
> requisite 4 years doing physical wiring, changing out the
>backup tapes,
> ghosting PCs. Then, you will let him get his CCNA and work
>for another
> four years doing whatever you consider appropriate
>CCNA-level work. Then,
> after eight years, you would permit him to start studying
>for the CCIE, I
> guess.
>
> I really admire the folks who learned their networking by
>many years of
> hard work in, say the military, doing everything from
>running wire,
> programming, setting up radios to making the ATM network run
>right. This,
> in my view, is an optimal way to build a networking career.
>Many of these
> people were underpaid for many years, and it is beautiful to
>see them
> finally rewarded for all their hard-work.
> <p>
> But some of us did not come to it that way. Some of us had
>the misfortune
> of spending years in graduate school or in some other
>challenging field when
> we could have been racking up years of experience in
>computer networking.
> Perhaps such a career-changer might not be the equal of
>someone with 20
> years of experience, but he should not even be permitted
>into your data
> center, even though he has proven that he can learn VERY
>difficult material
> through intensive study and unpaid hands-on experience.
>
> I left a job in a dying internet data center dot com to
>concentrate on my
> ccie studies, because I found that after a certain point in
>some "industry"
> jobs there are diminishing marginal returns in terms of what
>you learn after
> a certain point. If I had looked for another "industry" job
>at that time, I
> would not have found anything that would have permitted me
>to learn what I
> have learned in the last nine months or so.
>
>
> Peter Rosenthal" <perosenthal@hotmail.com> 04/30/02 11:18 AM
> >>>
> Completely agree with Rob about the dog comment. Although
>unless the lab
> becomes a Sylvan test it will never become like the MCSE or
>any other
> written test. However, I know that no "Junior CCIE" or lab
>rat with a few
> months experience is even going to get a badge to get in my
>data center let
> alone be responsible for one of my networks. Anyone that
>lets someone with
> 16 months experience run their network is simply asking for
>trouble. No
> matter how smart a person is you can't possibly obtain the
>necessary
> experience to run a complex multiprotocol network in that
>amount of time.
>
> This is not the last we are going to here of this sort of
>thing. There will
> be plenty more stories of "janitor to CCIE" or "secretary to
>CCIE" (already
> saw this one and laughed quite a bit) in the span of a few
>months. Schools
> will crop up all over the place advertising get your CCIE in
>6 months. The
> CCIE program will once again adapt to the "demand" of people
>wanting to take
> the test and make some other dramatic change to funnel us in
>and out of the
> exam as quickly as possible while comprising its integrity.
>Don't be
> surprised if someday the exam is the point, select and click
>either A, B, C,
> or D for the right answer. But hey that's fine. The CCIE
>will someday be
> replaced just as all the great certs before it. It was a
>fun ride while it
> lasted, but its almost over. Hope you guys enjoyed the
>ride!
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Robert Carter" <Robert.Carter2@telus.com>
> To: <ccielab@groupstud.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 9:23 AM
> Subject: RE: CCIE #9240
>
>
> > Oh boy. I'm gona get some hate mail for this but...
> >
> > This is clear proof that the CCIE is heading towards
>MCSE-land. Here is
> > another great example of someone who basically had their
>CCIE bought for
> > them. What happed to experience? This person has hardly
>seen a router 16
> > months ago! What does this say about the future of the
>CCIE? I have worked
> > with a disturbingly large amount of CCIEs who
>inadvertently trash the
> > certification because they completely fail in real world
>environments.
> >
> > With repetition and incentive you can teach any dog a
>trick.
> >
> > Rob
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Church, Chuck [mailto:cchurch@USTA.com]
> > Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 7:52 AM
> > To: 'Khan Munib'; 'ccielab@groupstudy.com'
> > Subject: RE: CCIE #9240
> >
> >
> > Kahn,
> >
> > Congratulations. It's a tough journey, without a doubt.
>But your
> > persistence paid off.
> >
> > P.S. The CCIE online store is now open, according to an
>email I got the
> > other day. Nice stuff they've got!
> >
> > Chuck Church
> > Sr. Network Engineer
> > CCIE #8776, MCNE, MCSE
> > US Tennis Association
> > 70 W. Red Oak Lane
> > White Plains, NY 10604
> > 914-696-7199
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: nobody@groupstudy.com
>[mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com]On Behalf Of
> > Khan Munib
> > Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 6:22 AM
> > To: 'ccielab@groupstudy.com'
> > Subject: CCIE #9240
> >
> >
> > Well Finally it my turn to send this mail!!!!!
> >
> > Passed yesterday in Brussels (3rd attempt). I was
>beginning to wonder if
> I
> > would ever get there. Firstly I would like to thank God
>without who
> nothing
> > is possible. I would also like to thank my family for
>their immense
> support
> > and patience.
> >
> > It's been a hectic 16 month Journey from Dec 2000 when I
>attained my CCNA
> > and was just getting into networking and had hardly seen a
>cisco router.
> I
> > have learnt so much over the last year, when I look back I
>cant believe
> how
> > far I've com. My company, Fujitsu (formerly ICL) has
>given me excellent
> > support and carried the bill for all my exam attempts etc.
>I would also
> > like to send a special Thank you to all at Netlogic
>Consulting, They have
> > guided me along the whole path through CCNA, NP and IE.
>Their courses
> were
> > excellent and their after sales support proved invaluable
>to me in getting
> > prepared for the LAB. I would seriously recommend any of
>you guys in the
> > UK who are looking for a CCIE prep course to consider
>them,
> > www.netlogicconsulting.com, their lab scenarios were key
>to me
> understanding
> > and learning all the different technologies.
> >
> > This list has also provided a great resource to find out
>info for
> > me.......Although I have been a relatively passive member
>I have learnt a
> > great deal from the discussions and also been greatly
>amused by some of
> the
> > OT discussions. Keep up the hard work everyone and don't
>give
> > up.........everyone can get there in the end.
> >
> > This email is only for the use of its intended recipient.
>Its contents are
> > confidential and may be privileged. Fujitsu Services does
>not guarantee
> that
> > this email has not been intercepted and amended or that it
>is virus-free.
> >
> > Munib Ali Khan
> > <<...OLE_Obj...>>
> > Network Services
> > Cavendish Road, Stevenage, Hertfordshire, SG1 2DY
> > Tel: +44 (0) 870 234 8171 Internal: 7301 5515
> > Mob: +44 (0) 7867 823214
> > Fax: +44 (0) 870 234 9199 Internal: 7301 6531
> > E-mail: Munib.Khan@services.fujitsu.com
> > Web: services.fujitsu.com
> >
> > Fujitsu Services Limited, Registered In England no 96056,
>Registered
> Office
> > 26, Finsbury Square, London, EC2A 1SL
> >
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