From: Joseph Brunner (joe@affirmedsystems.com)
Date: Mon May 05 2008 - 15:30:29 ART
>school has much more quality control
Sorry I have to call flatulence on that one... school has Affirmative
Action...
That means they BYPASS quality control in favor of racial/gender quotas...
I often hear David Robinson's (the Spurs basketball player) SAT score of
like 1150 touted as the greatest achievement since the discovery of
electricity, and how this is proof affirmative action works!
Well, my brother got over 1500 on his first try (in 8th grade). He didn't
ask for (and didn't need) affirmative action.
He went to top tier medical school for FREE... full free ride.
The CCIE is also a true test of YOU. Your ability to focus, your ability to
conquer odds. The quality control is neither given nor expected.
When I hear crap like Harvard has to let in X, Y, Z race because in the past
they were discriminated against, well that is poor quality control.
Should I cry for free tuition because I'm part Jewish? The problem with
schools these days is they have become a society of the weak. The business
world and the CCIE are a society of the strong...
-Joe
-----Original Message-----
From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
darth router
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 1:49 PM
To: Piyoush Sharma
Cc: Mike Johnson; ccielab@groupstudy.com; comserv@groupstudy.com
Subject: Re: How to Become a CCIE v2
I think NRFs recent point is school has much more quality control, and the
CCIE does not. It would be a fantastic policy if Cisco only let you take 2-3
attempts per year, but what would that accomplish? I'll tell you, lost
profits.
On Mon, May 5, 2008 at 7:40 AM, Piyoush Sharma <piyoush@gmail.com> wrote:
> I definitely agree with Mike, there is NO way you can compare something
> theoretical and books-based class exam to a hands-on CCIE lab exam. Keep
> in
> mind that the lab exam normally has a lot of obscure stuff that you may
> not
> normally use... its main purpose is not; cannot; be to test ALL your
> technical abilities in the respective domain, rather just to see if you
> have
> the ability to consolidate it well enough to pass. Regarding setting the
> limits on the no. of attempts, I think it really does not matter... your
> resume can only take you till that technical phone call or face
> interview..
> if you passed with bruteforce, then the interviewer WILL find out within a
> short period of time.
>
> Besides, I would not hesitate to tell an interviewer that I took more than
> 1
> attempts to pass it. Even after all the talk of having shortcuts and other
> ways to pass the lab, the passing % continues to remain low.
> In my opinion, I think Cisco is doing a great job of making sure that CCIE
> remains (one of) toughest and highly respected certs of the industry.
> There
> still are very few ppl who have a CCIE# ..
>
> Piyoush.
> (Hopefully I'll be among the elite few soon!!)
>
> Success is not Final; Failure is not Fatal. Its the courage to continue
> that
> counts.
>
>
>
> On Mon, May 5, 2008 at 6:32 AM, Mike Johnson <harbor235@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > The failure in your logic is that you are comparing a regular class exam
> > with a CCIE exam. At least on a regular
> > exam you know what chapters to study and your professor/teacher goes
> over
> > the skills you must master in class.
> > You may have a quiz on those skills to aide you on which areas you are
> not
> > doing well in so you can concentrate your studies, this is not true for
> a
> > CCIE test.
> >
> > On a CCIE exam the amount of potential material to study for is
> enormous,
> > take a look at a blueprint. Not only do you have to know the material
> you
> > have to configure it and get it working in a very short period
> > of time. I have a bachelors in Mathematics/Electrical Engineering and a
> MS
> > in Telecommunications Managemnet, hands down the the CCIE test was the
> > most
> > grueling test I ever took (8 hrs). I studied for approx 8-10 months.
> > During
> > that period
> > I normally studied about every day, for anywhere up to 4-12 hours a
> day.(I
> > was able to do some studying at work)
> >
> > The other failure in your logic is that you can take the same test over
> > and
> > over again. For example,
> > the current CCIE security exam has at least 6 versions of the test,
> > perhaps
> > more. Its not the same test,
> > the change little things as well which force you to know the material
> > inside
> > and out.
> >
> > The pass rate on CCIE exams are about 26%, I believe they make it very
> > hard
> > to see how you react
> > after failing. They also do not tell you what you got wrong, only a
> > percentage of a particular area that has
> > usually 4 to 5 parts. In my opinion you cannot pass the exam on the
> first
> > attempt unless someone has shared with
> > you the structure of the test and how to plan for it, there is just too
> > much
> > material.
> >
> > Check out this link:
> >
> > http://www.networkworld.com/news/2006/022006-widernet-ccie-side1.html
> >
> > harbor235 ;}
> >
> >
> > On 5/5/08, nrf <noglikirf@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > >NRF,
> > > >If you go to a school and get expelled what stops you from applying
> and
> > > getting admited again and again.
> > >
> > > Oh, I don't know, the school records perhaps? After all, if you apply
> > > again,
> > > you are going to have to provide the school with identifying
> information
> > > about
> > > yourself with which they can easily cross-check to see whether you had
> > in
> > > fact
> > > been a student at that school before. Heck, even if they don't do
> that
> > > and do
> > > admit you, then when you enroll, they will find out (usually through
> > one's
> > > SSN) that you have a prior student record at that school, and that's
> > when
> > > the
> > > jig is up.
> > >
> > > >It happens.
> > >
> > > Really? See above. Every single school has, as a matter of law, a
> > > database
> > > archive of the academic records of their prior students.
> > >
> > >
> > > >Give it a break.
> > >
> > > >Any CCIE can pass a class - mostly any class.
> > >
> > > But that's not the point, for that's not what I'm talking about. I
> > said
> > > it
> > > before, and I'll say it again: the greatest weakness of the CCIE
> > program
> > > is
> > > that you can just keep attempting the lab again and again until you
> > > finally
> > > pass. There is absolutely no penalty for previous failed attempts;
> > heck,
> > > employers don't even KNOW how many times you failed before you finally
> > > passed.
> > > Hence, there is no reason why somebody couldn't just try the exam over
> > and
> > > over again.
> > >
> > > Contrast that with what happens at any reputable school. You can't
> just
> > > fail
> > > your classes over and over again and expect to stay. Eventually, they
> > are
> > > going to kick you out. And no, as I explained above, you can't just
> > > reapply
> > > and get back in.
> > >
> > >
> > > >I went to one of the three toughest schools by statistics in the
> > country.
> > > The Navy Nuclear Propulsion >program. Now let me tell you there is
> > > induced
> > > stress there. It's a tough school. One must have aptitude to >attend
> > > (better
> > > than 90th percentile as I recall). One must further have a clean
> record
> > > and
> > > the ability to >obtain one or more security clearances. A little
> > tougher
> > > than
> > > just having a rich daddy.
> > >
> > > snip
> > > >Failed tests and sometimes even wrong answers on tests require an
> > > interview
> > > with subject department >heads to review student notes, the teacher's
> > > notes to
> > > verify the materials were taught and recorded by the >student, and the
> > > student's study logs. They may then be given remedial homework.
> Failing
> > > scores
> > > in the >school can result in charges of "dereliction of duty" under
> the
> > > Uniform Code of Military Justice, depending >on whether or not the
> > student
> > > was
> > > determined to be lacking effort, or lacking the ability to complete te
> > > >program.
> > >
> > > snip
> > >
> > > >The only school with a higher dropout rate is MIT and the preceeding
> > > course
> > > to it the nuclear field "a" school. This can be stressful
> > >
> > > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_Nuclear_Power_School
> > >
> > > >It is regarded as one of the most difficult academic programs in the
> > > world.
> > > Exactly exactly exactly. You have actually reinforced my precise
> > > point. The
> > > Navy Nuclear Propulsion School is significantly harder than the CCIE.
> > > Significantly harder. Why? Simple - there are actual penalties for
> > > failing.
> > >
> > > >So tell me again how hard programs are nrf. I have been there,
> > endured,
> > > and
> > > am here now studying for the >ccie.
> > >
> > > And it seems that you agree with me that there is a big difference
> > between
> > > a
> > > legitimately hard program like the nuclear power school and the CCIE.
> > >
> > > >There is a subtle difference the ccie is voluntary and parents do not
> > pay
> > > for
> > > it and the military will not arrest >you or mess up your whole life
> over
> > > it.
> > >
> > > Uh, I would hardly call that a "subtle" difference: in fact, that is
> as
> > > big
> > > of a difference as they come. There are actual penalties for
> performing
> > > poorly in the nuclear power school. Not so with the CCIE.
> > >
> > >
> > > >So I can compare the CCIE Program to that of one of the most rigorous
> > > programs in the world today and >for the past 50 years and not be
> > ashamed
> > > to
> > > do so.
> > > >I've considered the legal and medical professions and they are not as
> > > attractive to me. I'm a life-long >learner by design. The CCIE
> program
> > > and
> > > beyond offer that "rush" to me. You speak of stress. Qualify >for me
> > > what
> > > you call stress.
> > >
> > > Well, stress would be a situation, as you described, where there are
> > > serious
> > > penalties for failing. I said it before, I'll say it again, what
> > exactly
> > > are
> > > the penalties for failing the CCIE? Basically, you just lose a lab
> fee
> > > and a
> > > day of your time. Honestly, so what? Many people actually budget
> those
> > > factors into the total cost of becoming a CCIE.
> > >
> > > Look people. I hardly see why this is such a controversial point. I
> am
> > > simply pointing out that Cisco allows people to take the exam over and
> > > over
> > > again, and as a result, many people do exactly that in lieu of actual
> > > proper
> > > preparation. This is especially true for those people who happen to
> > work
> > > for
> > > employers (i.e. VAR's) who are located near to test centers who are
> > > willing to
> > > pay for their employee's numerous test attempts. Heck, I used to work
> > for
> > > a
> > > Silicon Valley VAR that would routinely pay to send their employees to
> > > take
> > > the CCIE exam over and over again, figuring that eventually, they'll
> all
> > > pass.
> > > {To be sure, that VAR eventually went out of business, and maybe
> that's
> > > not a
> > > coincidence.}
> > >
> > > Besides, for those who would continue to debate this point, let me ask
> > you
> > > -
> > > why do you continue to defend the practice of allowing people to take
> > the
> > > exam
> > > over and over again as many times as they want? Why exactly is that a
> > > good
> > > thing? I can think of several reasons for why it's a bad practice,
> > which
> > > I
> > > enumerate here:
> > >
> > > * It compromises the integrity of the exam, and by extension, the
> > > certification itself. Like I said, if you keep taking the exam over
> and
> > > over
> > > again, then eventually you're going to see questions that you saw
> > before.
> > > Either that, or you're eventually going to get the specific version of
> > the
> > > exam that has those very questions regarding topics that you know how
> to
> > > answer and no questions regarding topics that you don't know how to
> > > answer.
> > > Either way, the constant "do-overs" ultimately results in a lower
> > quality
> > > of
> > > CCIE.
> > >
> > > *It discourages people from studying properly. After all, it is only
> > > natural
> > > for people who know that if they can just repeat the exam, then they
> > don't
> > > really need to prepare properly for each attempt, and in fact, can use
> > > each
> > > attempt as "practice". Contrast the CCIE process with what
> happened
> > > when
> > > we all were in grade school. You couldn't just keep taking the same
> > test
> > > over
> > > and over again until you got the grade that you wanted. Your teacher
> > was
> > > going to give you the test ONCE, and your grade was your grade. If
> you
> > > didn't
> > > prepare properly, then you got a bad grade, and that's too bad for
> you.
> > > Hence, it behooved you to put in the proper preparation. Or think
> about
> > > it
> > > from a sports standpoint. The New England Patriots can't just keep
> > > demanding
> > > to replay the NY Giants in the Superbowl over and over again until
> they
> > > finally won. They play a one-shot game, and if they lost, then they
> > lost.
> > > Which means that the Patriots should have prepared better. If the
> > > Patriots
> > > knew they could just keep replaying the Superbowl until they finally
> > win,
> > > then
> > > what exactly is the incentive to put in the proper preparation?
> > >
> > > *It clogs up the system. As I think many of us know, availability of
> > > test
> > > seats is still a problem, especially in some of the smaller test
> > > sites. Yet
> > > that's because many of those seats are taken up by people who haven't
> > > bothered
> > > to prepare properly and are just using their attempt for "practice"
> > and/or
> > > are
> > > otherwise just taking the exam over and over again until they finally
> > > pass.
> > > These people are denying seats from others who did properly prepare.
> > >
> > > Now, look. I'd like to think I'm a reasonable guy. I am not
> demanding
> > > that
> > > everybody needs to pass the exam on their first shot, or even their
> > first
> > > few
> > > shots. What I am saying is that I think there should be reasonable
> > > policies
> > > to discourage people from taking the exam over and over. For example,
> > > perhaps
> > > there should be a yearly limit, i.e. every person can take the exam 3
> > > times in
> > > one year. Or perhaps a lifetime limit of, say, 10-15 total attempts.
> > Or
> > > maybe the price for each additional lab attempt should increase the
> more
> > > times
> > > you fail. Or maybe lab seat priority should be allotted in a manner of
> > > 'weighted fair queueing', where first-time test-takers get highest
> > > priority
> > > for seating, and those who failed the exam numerous times get the
> lowest
> > > priority. I think any or all of these proposals are quite
> > > reasonable. For
> > > example, if you can't pass the exam after 10 or 15 attempts, I think
> > it's
> > > reasonable to assume that you never will and you ought to let somebody
> > > else
> > > have your seat. Another proposal would be to simply publish how many
> > > attempts
> > > a person required before he actually passed.
> > >
> > > But for those who would continue to debate this point, please, by all
> > > means,
> > > tell us why a policy of unlimited attempts is a good thing. I would
> be
> > > very
> > > interested in hearing such an argument because I certainly can't think
> > of
> > > any
> > > good reasons for why it would be so.
> > >
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