Re: Company want CCIE, but they don't support my efforts

Good afternoon,

I just had to say that this post has been highly motivating. I've
been doing a lot on my own, but the point that was made is a great
one. If they don't value what you do and your goals/dreams it's time
to find someone who does.

Thanks for the insight and tips, I love this group.

Regards,
JB

On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 2:10 PM, Travis Niedens <niedentj_at_hotmail.com> wrote:
> I too have had the same issue Joe did in the past. It is an instant
> demotivator when you realize that the company you are working hard to
> support could care less about your contribution and technology in general.
> My current employer does support paying for the time, travel and the cert
> fees. While I am still on my own for bootcamps, etc., I do appreciate that
> they will contribute and see a value in me progressing.
>
> Travis
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nobody_at_groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody_at_groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
> Michael Kiefer
> Sent: Monday, September 12, 2011 8:53 AM
> To: Joe Astorino
> Cc: Radioactive Frog; Calin C.; farhan.anwar_at_gmail.com; shiran guez;
> daniel.dib_at_reaper.nu; ccielab_at_groupstudy.com
> Subject: Re: Company want CCIE, but they don't support my efforts
>
> I agree 110%. I left a Cisco reseller that wanted me to get the CCIE, but
> didn't want to pay for it.
>
> The company was in financial distress and greatly enjoyed having me as an
> employee.
>
> I got a contracting gig and a big enough bump in pay to cover my training,
> testing, build a rack, and go to Narbik's bootcamp.
>
> Eventually, I will get my digits that won't associated with any company.
> Then the ball is in my court!
>
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 11:40 AM, Joe Astorino
> <joeastorino1982_at_gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> I was in a similar situation. I will offer some advice, but remember
>> it is worth what you paid for it : ) In 2008 I began studying
>> hardcore for my lab exam. I went to my employer and put up a very
>> reasonable argument as to why they would benefit from a CCIE on staff,
>> and asked that they back me financially in that endeavor. I even
>> wrote a page long letter to the CIO explaining the benefits and
>> outlining the costs involved, etc.
>>
>> They essentially said "we want you focused on doing your job, not
> studying.
>> A CCNP is all we need, and we won't pay for a CCIE." At that point I
>> realized something important to me -- The company did not value
>> technology and they did not value expertise in that area. If I did
>> get my CCIE working there, it sure would not come with a raise. They
>> also knew I would probably leave and go make more $ somewhere else.
>>
>> As soon as they said "that's nice but do it on your own time" I
>> decided to start looking for another job. I set out to find a place
>> that valued technology and valued high end certifications like the
>> CCIE. Within a few months I got an offer working as a contractor for
>> Cisco, along with a $25k increase....and I was still working on my CCIE.
>>
>> The point is this -- If they won't pay for it, they don't value it.
>> Money talks. If they don't value what you are doing now, they won't
>> value it when you get the CCIE either. They will also know you are
>> valuable and it wouldn't surprise me if they are already trying to
>> figure out how to replace you cheaper. Companies are ruthless. Look
>> out for yourself, and start looking for a place that will support you
>> in your dreams
>>
>> My 2 cents
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 11:19 AM, Radioactive Frog
>> <pbhatkoti_at_gmail.com
>> >wrote:
>>
>> > Job hunt is the answer- find a company that is willing to pay your
>> > exam cost. To be able to get this, I think you need to offer these
>> > type of company more than just the "regular" skill-set.
>> > Not just the RnS but like Vmware, security and other skill set upfront.
>> >
>> > $20k is huge.. buy shares and in 6 months they might go up by 50% :)
>> >
>> >
>> > On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 9:36 PM, Calin C. <calin_at_engineer.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > > Thanks for your opinion,
>> > >
>> > > I don't feel that it's mandatory to attend a bootcamp. The work
>> > environment
>> > > is pretty challenging and combined with my spare time practice
>> > > will be
>> a
>> > > pretty good hands-on support for my lab exam.
>> > > The bootcamp came into discussion with my company as they inquire
>> > > about
>> > my
>> > > ongoing preparation with CCIE.
>> > > They didn't want to pay for my rack equipments (which I paid by my
>> > > own)
>> > so
>> > > I've suggested them to pay for a bootcamp (the lower cost one, aprox.
>> > 2.200
>> > > euro).
>> > >
>> > > Reading your suggestions now, I took the decision to continue on
>> > > my
>> own,
>> > > with my own rack and I'll buy the workbooks from a ccie training
>> provider
>> > (I
>> > > don't want to give the name to start a flame discussion about
>> > > which is best). I'll try the next 3 months to prepare hard and
>> > > then if I'm not
>> > happy
>> > > with my progress I'll check for a bootcamp of 5 days (if there
>> > > will be
>> > any
>> > > available in Europe, to reduce travel costs). I have no doubt that
>> > > a bootcamp can add valuable know-how, but right now the above
>> > > approach
>> fit
>> > > best my needs and the costs are acceptable.
>> > >
>> > > Cheers,
>> > > Calin
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > > ----- Original Message -----
>> > > > From: farhan.anwar_at_gmail.com
>> > > > Sent: 09/12/11 01:14 PM
>> > > > To: shiran guez, Calin C.
>> > > > Subject: Re: Company want CCIE, but they don't support my
>> > > > efforts
>> > > >
>> > > > Calin,
>> > > >
>> > > > I did my CCIE by utilising online bootcamps and mock labs that
>> > > > are
>> > > offered from many vendors. Save on the travelling and hotel costs,
>> > > take
>> > the
>> > > online bootcamp from your home, if you feel you need it.
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > HTH,
>> > > >
>> > > > Farhan Anwar
>> > > >
>> > > > Sent from my BlackBerryB. smartphone from du
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > >
>> > > > From: shiran guez <shiranp3_at_gmail.com>
>> > > >
>> > > > Sender: nobody_at_groupstudy.com
>> > > >
>> > > > Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2011 12:43:03
>> > > >
>> > > > To: Calin C.<calin_at_engineer.com>
>> > > >
>> > > > Reply-To: shiran guez <shiranp3_at_gmail.com>
>> > > >
>> > > > Cc: <daniel.dib_at_reaper.nu>; <ccielab_at_groupstudy.com>
>> > > >
>> > > > Subject: Re: Company want CCIE, but they don't support my
>> > > > efforts
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > 20K Euro is a lot of money, a boot-camp will speed your process
>> > > > to
>> > become
>> > > a
>> > > >
>> > > > CCIE but is it worth 20K I think it depends who need it and how
>> > > > fast
>> > when
>> > > a
>> > > >
>> > > > Cisco Partner need a CCIE and he decide to promote one of his
>> > > > workers
>> > he
>> > > >
>> > > > will send them to boot-camp because it is fast and he will get
>> > > >
>> > > > the investment back relativly fast, however if you personally
>> > > > doing
>> it
>> > I
>> > > am
>> > > >
>> > > > not sure you are going to pay back your investment that fast.
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > I have done my CCIE without boot-camp' in total including
>> > > >
>> > > > learning martial labs transatlantic flights 2 attempts and
>> > > > hotel's it
>> > > cost
>> > > >
>> > > > me ~7000USD may be a little less.
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > good luck
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 12:16 PM, Calin C. <calin_at_engineer.com>
>> wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > > Hello Daniel,
>> > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > > "...but if
>> > > >
>> > > > > > B the CCIE does nothing for them..."
>> > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > > Maybe I have to add some clarification. I'm being sold by my
>> > > > > hiring
>> > > company
>> > > >
>> > > > > as a consultant (or external partner) to other companies.
>> > > > > Maybe I'm
>> > not
>> > > into
>> > > >
>> > > > > marketing stuff, but I think selling a CCIE worth more than
>> > > > > selling
>> a
>> > > CCNP /
>> > > >
>> > > > > CCIP :)
>> > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > > So, event if they don't have a plan to go further on with
>> > > > > Cisco
>> > > >
>> > > > > partnership, I think they will gain something from my
>> > > > > increased
>> > > knowledge.
>> > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > > Thanks for reply!
>> > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > > Cheers,
>> > > >
>> > > > > Calin
>> > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
>> > > >
>> > > > > > From: daniel.dib_at_reaper.nu
>> > > >
>> > > > > > Sent: 09/12/11 11:02 AM
>> > > >
>> > > > > > To: ccielab_at_groupstudy.com
>> > > >
>> > > > > > Subject: Re: Company want CCIE, but they don't support my
>> > > > > > efforts
>> > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > > > On Mon, 12 Sep 2011 04:09:08 -0400, Calin C. wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > > > > Hello all,
>> > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > > > > I have here an ethical problem, more than a technical one
>> > > > > > > and I
>> > > said
>> > > >
>> > > > > > > to ask you guys, maybe somebody can give me an advice.
>> > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > > > > Scenario is the following.
>> > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > > > > For some time now I've been preparing for CCIE entirely on
>> > > > > > > my
>> own
>> > > >
>> > > > > > > costs (learning in my spare time, rack rental / equipment
>> > > >
>> > > > > > > acquisition,
>> > > >
>> > > > > > > exam fee, accomodation, travel...).I sit to an exam a
>> > > > > > > while ago
>> > > >
>> > > > > > > (about
>> > > >
>> > > > > > > a year) and fail. Came back home and start preparing again.
>> > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > > > > Now I want to sit to another lab in some months and I was
>> > thinking
>> > > >
>> > > > > > > that maybe a bootcamp will help. I've ask around some
>> > > > > > > friends
>> and
>> > > one
>> > > >
>> > > > > > > of them confirmed that he was in a bootcamp (company name
>> > > > > > > not
>> > > >
>> > > > > > > important, location Germany) and costs were about 20.000
>> > > > > > > euro (
>> 3
>> > > >
>> > > > > > > weeks bootcamp, accomodation, travel...). This is a lot of
>> money
>> > > for
>> > > >
>> > > > > > > me and I was thinking to ask my company to support me.
>> > > > > > > I've
>> found
>> > a
>> > > >
>> > > > > > > cheaper bootcamp (5 days around 2.200 euro + accomodation
>> > > > > > > and
>> > > travel,
>> > > >
>> > > > > > > let's say up to 3.500 euro). I've presented the above
>> > > > > > > numbers
>> to
>> > my
>> > > >
>> > > > > > > company and their answer was that they are willing to
>> > > > > > > support
>> me,
>> > > but
>> > > >
>> > > > > > > only for the efective cost of the exam itself.
>> > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > > > > Maybe it's important to say that I have other
>> > > > > > > certifications
>> > (CCNP,
>> > > >
>> > > > > > > CCIP, CXFS...) which are registered to my company for
>> > > > > > > Cisco
>> > > >
>> > > > > > > partnership.
>> > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > > > > Finally we arrive to my issue:
>> > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > > > > I will keep on supporting my way to CCIE on my own costs
>> > > > > > > (let's
>> > say
>> > > >
>> > > > > > > that the 5 days bootcamp I could afford to pay by my own,
>> > > > > > > or
>> buy
>> > > the
>> > > >
>> > > > > > > workbooks and practice on my own rack). I this case, my
>> question
>> > > is,
>> > > >
>> > > > > > > if I will get a CCIE number, this will be automatically
>> assigned
>> > to
>> > > >
>> > > > > > > the company that I'm registered with? I've tried to
>> > > > > > > explain to
>> > them
>> > > >
>> > > > > > > that if this is the case, I would find it a little bit
>> > > > > > > unfair
>> to
>> > > use
>> > > >
>> > > > > > > my number. The cost of the exam itself is nothing compared
>> > > > > > > to
>> the
>> > > >
>> > > > > > > rest
>> > > >
>> > > > > > > of efforts.
>> > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > > > > Please don't get me wrong. I'm fully satisfied with the
>> > > > > > > company
>> > > that
>> > > >
>> > > > > > > I'm working on and I don't want to leave it. From
>> > > > > > > financial and
>> > > >
>> > > > > > > social
>> > > >
>> > > > > > > perspective I'm happy with my position. I just want them
>> > > > > > > to
>> > > >
>> > > > > > > understand
>> > > >
>> > > > > > > that nothing in life is free and CCIE comes with a costs
>> > > > > > > that I
>> > > have
>> > > >
>> > > > > > > to either recover somehow or they need to sponsor my efforts.
>> > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > > > > Any input will be appreciated (especially to my question
>> > > > > > > about
>> > CCIE
>> > > >
>> > > > > > > number - company relationship).
>> > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > > > > Thanks for reading this long e-mail!
>> > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > > > > Calin
>> > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > > > B Use the Partner Self Service tool available from the
>> > > > > > Partner
>> > portal
>> > > to
>> > > >
>> > > > > > B see if you are assigned to a company. If you are then I
>> > > > > > suppose
>> > the
>> > > >
>> > > > > CCIE
>> > > >
>> > > > > > B will automatically be accredited to that company. Going to
>> > > > > > a
>> 20k
>> > > >
>> > > > > > B bootcamp seems like a waste, many people do pass the lab
>> without
>> > a
>> > > >
>> > > > > > B bootcamp. If you want to go to one go for one that is for
>> > > > > > a
>> week.
>> > > That
>> > > >
>> > > > > > B should be enough. Does your company need your CCIE to
>> > > > > > acheive a
>> > > certain
>> > > >
>> > > > > > B partner level? Maybe they don't and then they are not that
>> > > interested
>> > > >
>> > > > > in
>> > > >
>> > > > > > B paying for it? They should still pay you for the
>> > > > > > competence and
>> > > skills
>> > > >
>> > > > > > B you have achieved when becoming a CCIE through a higher
>> > > > > > salary
>> > but
>> > > if
>> > > >
>> > > > > > B the CCIE does nothing for them partnerwise maybe they are
>> > reluctant
>> > > to
>> > > >
>> > > > > > B pay costs for it. Just trying to get a grip of your situation.
>> > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > > > B /Daniel
>> > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > > > Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
>> > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > __________________________________________________________________
>> > > _____
>> > > >
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>> > > >
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>> > ____________________________________________________________________
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>> > > > >
>> > > >
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>> > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > >
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>> > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > --
>> > > >
>> > > > Shiran Guez
>> > > >
>> > > > MCSE CCNP NCE1 JNCIA-ENT JNCIS-ENT CCIE #20572
>> > > >
>> > > > http://cciep3.blogspot.com
>> > > >
>> > > > http://www.linkedin.com/in/cciep3
>> > > >
>> > > > http://twitter.com/cciep3
>> > > >
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>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
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>> > > >
>> ______________________________________________________________________
>> _
>> > > >
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>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> --
>> Regards,
>>
>> Joe Astorino
>> CCIE #24347
>> Blog: http://astorinonetworks.com
>>
>> "He not busy being born is busy dying" - Dylan
>>
>>
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Received on Mon Sep 12 2011 - 14:50:46 ART