RE: Company want CCIE, but they don't support my efforts

I too have had the same issue Joe did in the past. It is an instant
demotivator when you realize that the company you are working hard to
support could care less about your contribution and technology in general.
My current employer does support paying for the time, travel and the cert
fees. While I am still on my own for bootcamps, etc., I do appreciate that
they will contribute and see a value in me progressing.

Travis

-----Original Message-----
From: nobody_at_groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody_at_groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
Michael Kiefer
Sent: Monday, September 12, 2011 8:53 AM
To: Joe Astorino
Cc: Radioactive Frog; Calin C.; farhan.anwar_at_gmail.com; shiran guez;
daniel.dib_at_reaper.nu; ccielab_at_groupstudy.com
Subject: Re: Company want CCIE, but they don't support my efforts

I agree 110%. I left a Cisco reseller that wanted me to get the CCIE, but
didn't want to pay for it.

The company was in financial distress and greatly enjoyed having me as an
employee.

I got a contracting gig and a big enough bump in pay to cover my training,
testing, build a rack, and go to Narbik's bootcamp.

Eventually, I will get my digits that won't associated with any company.
Then the ball is in my court!

On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 11:40 AM, Joe Astorino
<joeastorino1982_at_gmail.com>wrote:

> I was in a similar situation. I will offer some advice, but remember
> it is worth what you paid for it : ) In 2008 I began studying
> hardcore for my lab exam. I went to my employer and put up a very
> reasonable argument as to why they would benefit from a CCIE on staff,
> and asked that they back me financially in that endeavor. I even
> wrote a page long letter to the CIO explaining the benefits and
> outlining the costs involved, etc.
>
> They essentially said "we want you focused on doing your job, not
studying.
> A CCNP is all we need, and we won't pay for a CCIE." At that point I
> realized something important to me -- The company did not value
> technology and they did not value expertise in that area. If I did
> get my CCIE working there, it sure would not come with a raise. They
> also knew I would probably leave and go make more $ somewhere else.
>
> As soon as they said "that's nice but do it on your own time" I
> decided to start looking for another job. I set out to find a place
> that valued technology and valued high end certifications like the
> CCIE. Within a few months I got an offer working as a contractor for
> Cisco, along with a $25k increase....and I was still working on my CCIE.
>
> The point is this -- If they won't pay for it, they don't value it.
> Money talks. If they don't value what you are doing now, they won't
> value it when you get the CCIE either. They will also know you are
> valuable and it wouldn't surprise me if they are already trying to
> figure out how to replace you cheaper. Companies are ruthless. Look
> out for yourself, and start looking for a place that will support you
> in your dreams
>
> My 2 cents
>
> On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 11:19 AM, Radioactive Frog
> <pbhatkoti_at_gmail.com
> >wrote:
>
> > Job hunt is the answer- find a company that is willing to pay your
> > exam cost. To be able to get this, I think you need to offer these
> > type of company more than just the "regular" skill-set.
> > Not just the RnS but like Vmware, security and other skill set upfront.
> >
> > $20k is huge.. buy shares and in 6 months they might go up by 50% :)
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 9:36 PM, Calin C. <calin_at_engineer.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Thanks for your opinion,
> > >
> > > I don't feel that it's mandatory to attend a bootcamp. The work
> > environment
> > > is pretty challenging and combined with my spare time practice
> > > will be
> a
> > > pretty good hands-on support for my lab exam.
> > > The bootcamp came into discussion with my company as they inquire
> > > about
> > my
> > > ongoing preparation with CCIE.
> > > They didn't want to pay for my rack equipments (which I paid by my
> > > own)
> > so
> > > I've suggested them to pay for a bootcamp (the lower cost one, aprox.
> > 2.200
> > > euro).
> > >
> > > Reading your suggestions now, I took the decision to continue on
> > > my
> own,
> > > with my own rack and I'll buy the workbooks from a ccie training
> provider
> > (I
> > > don't want to give the name to start a flame discussion about
> > > which is best). I'll try the next 3 months to prepare hard and
> > > then if I'm not
> > happy
> > > with my progress I'll check for a bootcamp of 5 days (if there
> > > will be
> > any
> > > available in Europe, to reduce travel costs). I have no doubt that
> > > a bootcamp can add valuable know-how, but right now the above
> > > approach
> fit
> > > best my needs and the costs are acceptable.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Calin
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: farhan.anwar_at_gmail.com
> > > > Sent: 09/12/11 01:14 PM
> > > > To: shiran guez, Calin C.
> > > > Subject: Re: Company want CCIE, but they don't support my
> > > > efforts
> > > >
> > > > Calin,
> > > >
> > > > I did my CCIE by utilising online bootcamps and mock labs that
> > > > are
> > > offered from many vendors. Save on the travelling and hotel costs,
> > > take
> > the
> > > online bootcamp from your home, if you feel you need it.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > HTH,
> > > >
> > > > Farhan Anwar
> > > >
> > > > Sent from my BlackBerryB. smartphone from du
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > >
> > > > From: shiran guez <shiranp3_at_gmail.com>
> > > >
> > > > Sender: nobody_at_groupstudy.com
> > > >
> > > > Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2011 12:43:03
> > > >
> > > > To: Calin C.<calin_at_engineer.com>
> > > >
> > > > Reply-To: shiran guez <shiranp3_at_gmail.com>
> > > >
> > > > Cc: <daniel.dib_at_reaper.nu>; <ccielab_at_groupstudy.com>
> > > >
> > > > Subject: Re: Company want CCIE, but they don't support my
> > > > efforts
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 20K Euro is a lot of money, a boot-camp will speed your process
> > > > to
> > become
> > > a
> > > >
> > > > CCIE but is it worth 20K I think it depends who need it and how
> > > > fast
> > when
> > > a
> > > >
> > > > Cisco Partner need a CCIE and he decide to promote one of his
> > > > workers
> > he
> > > >
> > > > will send them to boot-camp because it is fast and he will get
> > > >
> > > > the investment back relativly fast, however if you personally
> > > > doing
> it
> > I
> > > am
> > > >
> > > > not sure you are going to pay back your investment that fast.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I have done my CCIE without boot-camp' in total including
> > > >
> > > > learning martial labs transatlantic flights 2 attempts and
> > > > hotel's it
> > > cost
> > > >
> > > > me ~7000USD may be a little less.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > good luck
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 12:16 PM, Calin C. <calin_at_engineer.com>
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Hello Daniel,
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > "...but if
> > > >
> > > > > > B the CCIE does nothing for them..."
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Maybe I have to add some clarification. I'm being sold by my
> > > > > hiring
> > > company
> > > >
> > > > > as a consultant (or external partner) to other companies.
> > > > > Maybe I'm
> > not
> > > into
> > > >
> > > > > marketing stuff, but I think selling a CCIE worth more than
> > > > > selling
> a
> > > CCNP /
> > > >
> > > > > CCIP :)
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > So, event if they don't have a plan to go further on with
> > > > > Cisco
> > > >
> > > > > partnership, I think they will gain something from my
> > > > > increased
> > > knowledge.
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Thanks for reply!
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Cheers,
> > > >
> > > > > Calin
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > >
> > > > > > From: daniel.dib_at_reaper.nu
> > > >
> > > > > > Sent: 09/12/11 11:02 AM
> > > >
> > > > > > To: ccielab_at_groupstudy.com
> > > >
> > > > > > Subject: Re: Company want CCIE, but they don't support my
> > > > > > efforts
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > > On Mon, 12 Sep 2011 04:09:08 -0400, Calin C. wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > > > Hello all,
> > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > > > I have here an ethical problem, more than a technical one
> > > > > > > and I
> > > said
> > > >
> > > > > > > to ask you guys, maybe somebody can give me an advice.
> > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > > > Scenario is the following.
> > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > > > For some time now I've been preparing for CCIE entirely on
> > > > > > > my
> own
> > > >
> > > > > > > costs (learning in my spare time, rack rental / equipment
> > > >
> > > > > > > acquisition,
> > > >
> > > > > > > exam fee, accomodation, travel...).I sit to an exam a
> > > > > > > while ago
> > > >
> > > > > > > (about
> > > >
> > > > > > > a year) and fail. Came back home and start preparing again.
> > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > > > Now I want to sit to another lab in some months and I was
> > thinking
> > > >
> > > > > > > that maybe a bootcamp will help. I've ask around some
> > > > > > > friends
> and
> > > one
> > > >
> > > > > > > of them confirmed that he was in a bootcamp (company name
> > > > > > > not
> > > >
> > > > > > > important, location Germany) and costs were about 20.000
> > > > > > > euro (
> 3
> > > >
> > > > > > > weeks bootcamp, accomodation, travel...). This is a lot of
> money
> > > for
> > > >
> > > > > > > me and I was thinking to ask my company to support me.
> > > > > > > I've
> found
> > a
> > > >
> > > > > > > cheaper bootcamp (5 days around 2.200 euro + accomodation
> > > > > > > and
> > > travel,
> > > >
> > > > > > > let's say up to 3.500 euro). I've presented the above
> > > > > > > numbers
> to
> > my
> > > >
> > > > > > > company and their answer was that they are willing to
> > > > > > > support
> me,
> > > but
> > > >
> > > > > > > only for the efective cost of the exam itself.
> > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > > > Maybe it's important to say that I have other
> > > > > > > certifications
> > (CCNP,
> > > >
> > > > > > > CCIP, CXFS...) which are registered to my company for
> > > > > > > Cisco
> > > >
> > > > > > > partnership.
> > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > > > Finally we arrive to my issue:
> > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > > > I will keep on supporting my way to CCIE on my own costs
> > > > > > > (let's
> > say
> > > >
> > > > > > > that the 5 days bootcamp I could afford to pay by my own,
> > > > > > > or
> buy
> > > the
> > > >
> > > > > > > workbooks and practice on my own rack). I this case, my
> question
> > > is,
> > > >
> > > > > > > if I will get a CCIE number, this will be automatically
> assigned
> > to
> > > >
> > > > > > > the company that I'm registered with? I've tried to
> > > > > > > explain to
> > them
> > > >
> > > > > > > that if this is the case, I would find it a little bit
> > > > > > > unfair
> to
> > > use
> > > >
> > > > > > > my number. The cost of the exam itself is nothing compared
> > > > > > > to
> the
> > > >
> > > > > > > rest
> > > >
> > > > > > > of efforts.
> > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > > > Please don't get me wrong. I'm fully satisfied with the
> > > > > > > company
> > > that
> > > >
> > > > > > > I'm working on and I don't want to leave it. From
> > > > > > > financial and
> > > >
> > > > > > > social
> > > >
> > > > > > > perspective I'm happy with my position. I just want them
> > > > > > > to
> > > >
> > > > > > > understand
> > > >
> > > > > > > that nothing in life is free and CCIE comes with a costs
> > > > > > > that I
> > > have
> > > >
> > > > > > > to either recover somehow or they need to sponsor my efforts.
> > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > > > Any input will be appreciated (especially to my question
> > > > > > > about
> > CCIE
> > > >
> > > > > > > number - company relationship).
> > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks for reading this long e-mail!
> > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > > > Calin
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > > B Use the Partner Self Service tool available from the
> > > > > > Partner
> > portal
> > > to
> > > >
> > > > > > B see if you are assigned to a company. If you are then I
> > > > > > suppose
> > the
> > > >
> > > > > CCIE
> > > >
> > > > > > B will automatically be accredited to that company. Going to
> > > > > > a
> 20k
> > > >
> > > > > > B bootcamp seems like a waste, many people do pass the lab
> without
> > a
> > > >
> > > > > > B bootcamp. If you want to go to one go for one that is for
> > > > > > a
> week.
> > > That
> > > >
> > > > > > B should be enough. Does your company need your CCIE to
> > > > > > acheive a
> > > certain
> > > >
> > > > > > B partner level? Maybe they don't and then they are not that
> > > interested
> > > >
> > > > > in
> > > >
> > > > > > B paying for it? They should still pay you for the
> > > > > > competence and
> > > skills
> > > >
> > > > > > B you have achieved when becoming a CCIE through a higher
> > > > > > salary
> > but
> > > if
> > > >
> > > > > > B the CCIE does nothing for them partnerwise maybe they are
> > reluctant
> > > to
> > > >
> > > > > > B pay costs for it. Just trying to get a grip of your situation.
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > > B /Daniel
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > > Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > __________________________________________________________________
> > > _____
> > > >
> > > > > > Subscription information may be found at:
> > > >
> > > > > > http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > ____________________________________________________________________
> > ___
> > > >
> > > > > Subscription information may be found at:
> > > >
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> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > >
> > > > Shiran Guez
> > > >
> > > > MCSE CCNP NCE1 JNCIA-ENT JNCIS-ENT CCIE #20572
> > > >
> > > > http://cciep3.blogspot.com
> > > >
> > > > http://www.linkedin.com/in/cciep3
> > > >
> > > > http://twitter.com/cciep3
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> ______________________________________________________________________
> _
> > > >
> > > > Subscription information may be found at:
> > > >
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> > >
> > >
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> > >
> > > __________________________________________________________________
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> >
> >
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> >
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> > ___ Subscription information may be found at:
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> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Regards,
>
> Joe Astorino
> CCIE #24347
> Blog: http://astorinonetworks.com
>
> "He not busy being born is busy dying" - Dylan
>
>
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>
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Received on Mon Sep 12 2011 - 12:10:27 ART