From: darth router (darklordrouter@gmail.com)
Date: Mon May 05 2008 - 14:49:29 ART
I think NRFs recent point is school has much more quality control, and the
CCIE does not. It would be a fantastic policy if Cisco only let you take 2-3
attempts per year, but what would that accomplish? I'll tell you, lost
profits.
On Mon, May 5, 2008 at 7:40 AM, Piyoush Sharma <piyoush@gmail.com> wrote:
> I definitely agree with Mike, there is NO way you can compare something
> theoretical and books-based class exam to a hands-on CCIE lab exam. Keep
> in
> mind that the lab exam normally has a lot of obscure stuff that you may
> not
> normally use... its main purpose is not; cannot; be to test ALL your
> technical abilities in the respective domain, rather just to see if you
> have
> the ability to consolidate it well enough to pass. Regarding setting the
> limits on the no. of attempts, I think it really does not matter... your
> resume can only take you till that technical phone call or face
> interview..
> if you passed with bruteforce, then the interviewer WILL find out within a
> short period of time.
>
> Besides, I would not hesitate to tell an interviewer that I took more than
> 1
> attempts to pass it. Even after all the talk of having shortcuts and other
> ways to pass the lab, the passing % continues to remain low.
> In my opinion, I think Cisco is doing a great job of making sure that CCIE
> remains (one of) toughest and highly respected certs of the industry.
> There
> still are very few ppl who have a CCIE# ..
>
> Piyoush.
> (Hopefully I'll be among the elite few soon!!)
>
> Success is not Final; Failure is not Fatal. Its the courage to continue
> that
> counts.
>
>
>
> On Mon, May 5, 2008 at 6:32 AM, Mike Johnson <harbor235@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > The failure in your logic is that you are comparing a regular class exam
> > with a CCIE exam. At least on a regular
> > exam you know what chapters to study and your professor/teacher goes
> over
> > the skills you must master in class.
> > You may have a quiz on those skills to aide you on which areas you are
> not
> > doing well in so you can concentrate your studies, this is not true for
> a
> > CCIE test.
> >
> > On a CCIE exam the amount of potential material to study for is
> enormous,
> > take a look at a blueprint. Not only do you have to know the material
> you
> > have to configure it and get it working in a very short period
> > of time. I have a bachelors in Mathematics/Electrical Engineering and a
> MS
> > in Telecommunications Managemnet, hands down the the CCIE test was the
> > most
> > grueling test I ever took (8 hrs). I studied for approx 8-10 months.
> > During
> > that period
> > I normally studied about every day, for anywhere up to 4-12 hours a
> day.(I
> > was able to do some studying at work)
> >
> > The other failure in your logic is that you can take the same test over
> > and
> > over again. For example,
> > the current CCIE security exam has at least 6 versions of the test,
> > perhaps
> > more. Its not the same test,
> > the change little things as well which force you to know the material
> > inside
> > and out.
> >
> > The pass rate on CCIE exams are about 26%, I believe they make it very
> > hard
> > to see how you react
> > after failing. They also do not tell you what you got wrong, only a
> > percentage of a particular area that has
> > usually 4 to 5 parts. In my opinion you cannot pass the exam on the
> first
> > attempt unless someone has shared with
> > you the structure of the test and how to plan for it, there is just too
> > much
> > material.
> >
> > Check out this link:
> >
> > http://www.networkworld.com/news/2006/022006-widernet-ccie-side1.html
> >
> > harbor235 ;}
> >
> >
> > On 5/5/08, nrf <noglikirf@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > >NRF,
> > > >If you go to a school and get expelled what stops you from applying
> and
> > > getting admited again and again.
> > >
> > > Oh, I don't know, the school records perhaps? After all, if you apply
> > > again,
> > > you are going to have to provide the school with identifying
> information
> > > about
> > > yourself with which they can easily cross-check to see whether you had
> > in
> > > fact
> > > been a student at that school before. Heck, even if they don't do
> that
> > > and do
> > > admit you, then when you enroll, they will find out (usually through
> > one's
> > > SSN) that you have a prior student record at that school, and that's
> > when
> > > the
> > > jig is up.
> > >
> > > >It happens.
> > >
> > > Really? See above. Every single school has, as a matter of law, a
> > > database
> > > archive of the academic records of their prior students.
> > >
> > >
> > > >Give it a break.
> > >
> > > >Any CCIE can pass a class - mostly any class.
> > >
> > > But that's not the point, for that's not what I'm talking about. I
> > said
> > > it
> > > before, and I'll say it again: the greatest weakness of the CCIE
> > program
> > > is
> > > that you can just keep attempting the lab again and again until you
> > > finally
> > > pass. There is absolutely no penalty for previous failed attempts;
> > heck,
> > > employers don't even KNOW how many times you failed before you finally
> > > passed.
> > > Hence, there is no reason why somebody couldn't just try the exam over
> > and
> > > over again.
> > >
> > > Contrast that with what happens at any reputable school. You can't
> just
> > > fail
> > > your classes over and over again and expect to stay. Eventually, they
> > are
> > > going to kick you out. And no, as I explained above, you can't just
> > > reapply
> > > and get back in.
> > >
> > >
> > > >I went to one of the three toughest schools by statistics in the
> > country.
> > > The Navy Nuclear Propulsion >program. Now let me tell you there is
> > > induced
> > > stress there. It's a tough school. One must have aptitude to >attend
> > > (better
> > > than 90th percentile as I recall). One must further have a clean
> record
> > > and
> > > the ability to >obtain one or more security clearances. A little
> > tougher
> > > than
> > > just having a rich daddy.
> > >
> > > snip
> > > >Failed tests and sometimes even wrong answers on tests require an
> > > interview
> > > with subject department >heads to review student notes, the teacher's
> > > notes to
> > > verify the materials were taught and recorded by the >student, and the
> > > student's study logs. They may then be given remedial homework.
> Failing
> > > scores
> > > in the >school can result in charges of "dereliction of duty" under
> the
> > > Uniform Code of Military Justice, depending >on whether or not the
> > student
> > > was
> > > determined to be lacking effort, or lacking the ability to complete te
> > > >program.
> > >
> > > snip
> > >
> > > >The only school with a higher dropout rate is MIT and the preceeding
> > > course
> > > to it the nuclear field "a" school. This can be stressful
> > >
> > > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_Nuclear_Power_School
> > >
> > > >It is regarded as one of the most difficult academic programs in the
> > > world.
> > > Exactly exactly exactly. You have actually reinforced my precise
> > > point. The
> > > Navy Nuclear Propulsion School is significantly harder than the CCIE.
> > > Significantly harder. Why? Simple - there are actual penalties for
> > > failing.
> > >
> > > >So tell me again how hard programs are nrf. I have been there,
> > endured,
> > > and
> > > am here now studying for the >ccie.
> > >
> > > And it seems that you agree with me that there is a big difference
> > between
> > > a
> > > legitimately hard program like the nuclear power school and the CCIE.
> > >
> > > >There is a subtle difference the ccie is voluntary and parents do not
> > pay
> > > for
> > > it and the military will not arrest >you or mess up your whole life
> over
> > > it.
> > >
> > > Uh, I would hardly call that a "subtle" difference: in fact, that is
> as
> > > big
> > > of a difference as they come. There are actual penalties for
> performing
> > > poorly in the nuclear power school. Not so with the CCIE.
> > >
> > >
> > > >So I can compare the CCIE Program to that of one of the most rigorous
> > > programs in the world today and >for the past 50 years and not be
> > ashamed
> > > to
> > > do so.
> > > >I've considered the legal and medical professions and they are not as
> > > attractive to me. I'm a life-long >learner by design. The CCIE
> program
> > > and
> > > beyond offer that "rush" to me. You speak of stress. Qualify >for me
> > > what
> > > you call stress.
> > >
> > > Well, stress would be a situation, as you described, where there are
> > > serious
> > > penalties for failing. I said it before, I'll say it again, what
> > exactly
> > > are
> > > the penalties for failing the CCIE? Basically, you just lose a lab
> fee
> > > and a
> > > day of your time. Honestly, so what? Many people actually budget
> those
> > > factors into the total cost of becoming a CCIE.
> > >
> > > Look people. I hardly see why this is such a controversial point. I
> am
> > > simply pointing out that Cisco allows people to take the exam over and
> > > over
> > > again, and as a result, many people do exactly that in lieu of actual
> > > proper
> > > preparation. This is especially true for those people who happen to
> > work
> > > for
> > > employers (i.e. VAR's) who are located near to test centers who are
> > > willing to
> > > pay for their employee's numerous test attempts. Heck, I used to work
> > for
> > > a
> > > Silicon Valley VAR that would routinely pay to send their employees to
> > > take
> > > the CCIE exam over and over again, figuring that eventually, they'll
> all
> > > pass.
> > > {To be sure, that VAR eventually went out of business, and maybe
> that's
> > > not a
> > > coincidence.}
> > >
> > > Besides, for those who would continue to debate this point, let me ask
> > you
> > > -
> > > why do you continue to defend the practice of allowing people to take
> > the
> > > exam
> > > over and over again as many times as they want? Why exactly is that a
> > > good
> > > thing? I can think of several reasons for why it's a bad practice,
> > which
> > > I
> > > enumerate here:
> > >
> > > * It compromises the integrity of the exam, and by extension, the
> > > certification itself. Like I said, if you keep taking the exam over
> and
> > > over
> > > again, then eventually you're going to see questions that you saw
> > before.
> > > Either that, or you're eventually going to get the specific version of
> > the
> > > exam that has those very questions regarding topics that you know how
> to
> > > answer and no questions regarding topics that you don't know how to
> > > answer.
> > > Either way, the constant "do-overs" ultimately results in a lower
> > quality
> > > of
> > > CCIE.
> > >
> > > *It discourages people from studying properly. After all, it is only
> > > natural
> > > for people who know that if they can just repeat the exam, then they
> > don't
> > > really need to prepare properly for each attempt, and in fact, can use
> > > each
> > > attempt as "practice". Contrast the CCIE process with what
> happened
> > > when
> > > we all were in grade school. You couldn't just keep taking the same
> > test
> > > over
> > > and over again until you got the grade that you wanted. Your teacher
> > was
> > > going to give you the test ONCE, and your grade was your grade. If
> you
> > > didn't
> > > prepare properly, then you got a bad grade, and that's too bad for
> you.
> > > Hence, it behooved you to put in the proper preparation. Or think
> about
> > > it
> > > from a sports standpoint. The New England Patriots can't just keep
> > > demanding
> > > to replay the NY Giants in the Superbowl over and over again until
> they
> > > finally won. They play a one-shot game, and if they lost, then they
> > lost.
> > > Which means that the Patriots should have prepared better. If the
> > > Patriots
> > > knew they could just keep replaying the Superbowl until they finally
> > win,
> > > then
> > > what exactly is the incentive to put in the proper preparation?
> > >
> > > *It clogs up the system. As I think many of us know, availability of
> > > test
> > > seats is still a problem, especially in some of the smaller test
> > > sites. Yet
> > > that's because many of those seats are taken up by people who haven't
> > > bothered
> > > to prepare properly and are just using their attempt for "practice"
> > and/or
> > > are
> > > otherwise just taking the exam over and over again until they finally
> > > pass.
> > > These people are denying seats from others who did properly prepare.
> > >
> > > Now, look. I'd like to think I'm a reasonable guy. I am not
> demanding
> > > that
> > > everybody needs to pass the exam on their first shot, or even their
> > first
> > > few
> > > shots. What I am saying is that I think there should be reasonable
> > > policies
> > > to discourage people from taking the exam over and over. For example,
> > > perhaps
> > > there should be a yearly limit, i.e. every person can take the exam 3
> > > times in
> > > one year. Or perhaps a lifetime limit of, say, 10-15 total attempts.
> > Or
> > > maybe the price for each additional lab attempt should increase the
> more
> > > times
> > > you fail. Or maybe lab seat priority should be allotted in a manner of
> > > 'weighted fair queueing', where first-time test-takers get highest
> > > priority
> > > for seating, and those who failed the exam numerous times get the
> lowest
> > > priority. I think any or all of these proposals are quite
> > > reasonable. For
> > > example, if you can't pass the exam after 10 or 15 attempts, I think
> > it's
> > > reasonable to assume that you never will and you ought to let somebody
> > > else
> > > have your seat. Another proposal would be to simply publish how many
> > > attempts
> > > a person required before he actually passed.
> > >
> > > But for those who would continue to debate this point, please, by all
> > > means,
> > > tell us why a policy of unlimited attempts is a good thing. I would
> be
> > > very
> > > interested in hearing such an argument because I certainly can't think
> > of
> > > any
> > > good reasons for why it would be so.
> > >
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