From: darth router (darklordrouter@gmail.com)
Date: Mon May 05 2008 - 18:15:41 ART
CCIE isn't gonna be too strong in the future without some quality control :D
On Mon, May 5, 2008 at 11:41 AM, Joe Rinehart <jjrinehart@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> I agree, race should NOT be a part of this...
>
> Its not a matter of WHEN you get there but THAT you get there, whether it
> takes one time (kudos to you that do) or five times like me...
>
> The fact that someone got there first does not make them more special...
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
> tporter0@comcast.net
> Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 12:25 PM
> To: 'darth router'; 'Piyoush Sharma'; Joseph Brunner; 'darth router';
> 'Piyoush Sharma'
> Cc: 'Mike Johnson'; ccielab@groupstudy.com; comserv@groupstudy.com; 'Mike
> Johnson'; ccielab@groupstudy.com; comserv@groupstudy.com
> Subject: RE: How to Become a CCIE v2
>
> Ok why do we need to drag race into this?????????????????????????????
>
> Thomas
> -------------- Original message ----------------------
> From: "Joseph Brunner" <joe@affirmedsystems.com>
> > >school has much more quality control
> >
> > Sorry I have to call flatulence on that one... school has Affirmative
> > Action...
> >
> > That means they BYPASS quality control in favor of racial/gender
> quotas...
> >
> > I often hear David Robinson's (the Spurs basketball player) SAT score of
> > like 1150 touted as the greatest achievement since the discovery of
> > electricity, and how this is proof affirmative action works!
> >
> > Well, my brother got over 1500 on his first try (in 8th grade). He
> didn't
> > ask for (and didn't need) affirmative action.
> > He went to top tier medical school for FREE... full free ride.
> >
> > The CCIE is also a true test of YOU. Your ability to focus, your ability
> to
> > conquer odds. The quality control is neither given nor expected.
> >
> > When I hear crap like Harvard has to let in X, Y, Z race because in the
> past
> > they were discriminated against, well that is poor quality control.
> >
> > Should I cry for free tuition because I'm part Jewish? The problem with
> > schools these days is they have become a society of the weak. The
> business
> > world and the CCIE are a society of the strong...
> >
> > -Joe
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
> > darth router
> > Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 1:49 PM
> > To: Piyoush Sharma
> > Cc: Mike Johnson; ccielab@groupstudy.com; comserv@groupstudy.com
> > Subject: Re: How to Become a CCIE v2
> >
> > I think NRFs recent point is school has much more quality control, and
> the
> > CCIE does not. It would be a fantastic policy if Cisco only let you take
> 2-3
> > attempts per year, but what would that accomplish? I'll tell you, lost
> > profits.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, May 5, 2008 at 7:40 AM, Piyoush Sharma <piyoush@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > > I definitely agree with Mike, there is NO way you can compare
> something
> > > theoretical and books-based class exam to a hands-on CCIE lab exam.
> Keep
> > > in
> > > mind that the lab exam normally has a lot of obscure stuff that you
> may
> > > not
> > > normally use... its main purpose is not; cannot; be to test ALL your
> > > technical abilities in the respective domain, rather just to see if
> you
> > > have
> > > the ability to consolidate it well enough to pass. Regarding setting
> the
> > > limits on the no. of attempts, I think it really does not matter...
> your
> > > resume can only take you till that technical phone call or face
> > > interview..
> > > if you passed with bruteforce, then the interviewer WILL find out
> within
> a
> > > short period of time.
> > >
> > > Besides, I would not hesitate to tell an interviewer that I took more
> than
> > > 1
> > > attempts to pass it. Even after all the talk of having shortcuts and
> other
> > > ways to pass the lab, the passing % continues to remain low.
> > > In my opinion, I think Cisco is doing a great job of making sure that
> CCIE
> > > remains (one of) toughest and highly respected certs of the industry.
> > > There
> > > still are very few ppl who have a CCIE# ..
> > >
> > > Piyoush.
> > > (Hopefully I'll be among the elite few soon!!)
> > >
> > > Success is not Final; Failure is not Fatal. Its the courage to
> continue
> > > that
> > > counts.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mon, May 5, 2008 at 6:32 AM, Mike Johnson <harbor235@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > The failure in your logic is that you are comparing a regular class
> exam
> > > > with a CCIE exam. At least on a regular
> > > > exam you know what chapters to study and your professor/teacher goes
> > > over
> > > > the skills you must master in class.
> > > > You may have a quiz on those skills to aide you on which areas you
> are
> > > not
> > > > doing well in so you can concentrate your studies, this is not true
> for
> > > a
> > > > CCIE test.
> > > >
> > > > On a CCIE exam the amount of potential material to study for is
> > > enormous,
> > > > take a look at a blueprint. Not only do you have to know the
> material
> > > you
> > > > have to configure it and get it working in a very short period
> > > > of time. I have a bachelors in Mathematics/Electrical Engineering
> and
> a
> > > MS
> > > > in Telecommunications Managemnet, hands down the the CCIE test was
> the
> > > > most
> > > > grueling test I ever took (8 hrs). I studied for approx 8-10 months.
> > > > During
> > > > that period
> > > > I normally studied about every day, for anywhere up to 4-12 hours a
> > > day.(I
> > > > was able to do some studying at work)
> > > >
> > > > The other failure in your logic is that you can take the same test
> over
> > > > and
> > > > over again. For example,
> > > > the current CCIE security exam has at least 6 versions of the test,
> > > > perhaps
> > > > more. Its not the same test,
> > > > the change little things as well which force you to know the
> material
> > > > inside
> > > > and out.
> > > >
> > > > The pass rate on CCIE exams are about 26%, I believe they make it
> very
> > > > hard
> > > > to see how you react
> > > > after failing. They also do not tell you what you got wrong, only a
> > > > percentage of a particular area that has
> > > > usually 4 to 5 parts. In my opinion you cannot pass the exam on the
> > > first
> > > > attempt unless someone has shared with
> > > > you the structure of the test and how to plan for it, there is just
> too
> > > > much
> > > > material.
> > > >
> > > > Check out this link:
> > > >
> > > >
> http://www.networkworld.com/news/2006/022006-widernet-ccie-side1.html
> > > >
> > > > harbor235 ;}
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 5/5/08, nrf <noglikirf@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > >NRF,
> > > > > >If you go to a school and get expelled what stops you from
> applying
> > > and
> > > > > getting admited again and again.
> > > > >
> > > > > Oh, I don't know, the school records perhaps? After all, if you
> apply
> > > > > again,
> > > > > you are going to have to provide the school with identifying
> > > information
> > > > > about
> > > > > yourself with which they can easily cross-check to see whether you
> had
> > > > in
> > > > > fact
> > > > > been a student at that school before. Heck, even if they don't do
> > > that
> > > > > and do
> > > > > admit you, then when you enroll, they will find out (usually
> through
> > > > one's
> > > > > SSN) that you have a prior student record at that school, and
> that's
> > > > when
> > > > > the
> > > > > jig is up.
> > > > >
> > > > > >It happens.
> > > > >
> > > > > Really? See above. Every single school has, as a matter of law,
> a
> > > > > database
> > > > > archive of the academic records of their prior students.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >Give it a break.
> > > > >
> > > > > >Any CCIE can pass a class - mostly any class.
> > > > >
> > > > > But that's not the point, for that's not what I'm talking about.
> I
> > > > said
> > > > > it
> > > > > before, and I'll say it again: the greatest weakness of the CCIE
> > > > program
> > > > > is
> > > > > that you can just keep attempting the lab again and again until
> you
> > > > > finally
> > > > > pass. There is absolutely no penalty for previous failed
> attempts;
> > > > heck,
> > > > > employers don't even KNOW how many times you failed before you
> finally
> > > > > passed.
> > > > > Hence, there is no reason why somebody couldn't just try the exam
> over
> > > > and
> > > > > over again.
> > > > >
> > > > > Contrast that with what happens at any reputable school. You
> can't
> > > just
> > > > > fail
> > > > > your classes over and over again and expect to stay. Eventually,
> they
> > > > are
> > > > > going to kick you out. And no, as I explained above, you can't
> just
> > > > > reapply
> > > > > and get back in.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >I went to one of the three toughest schools by statistics in the
> > > > country.
> > > > > The Navy Nuclear Propulsion >program. Now let me tell you there
> is
> > > > > induced
> > > > > stress there. It's a tough school. One must have aptitude to
> >attend
> > > > > (better
> > > > > than 90th percentile as I recall). One must further have a clean
> > > record
> > > > > and
> > > > > the ability to >obtain one or more security clearances. A little
> > > > tougher
> > > > > than
> > > > > just having a rich daddy.
> > > > >
> > > > > snip
> > > > > >Failed tests and sometimes even wrong answers on tests require an
> > > > > interview
> > > > > with subject department >heads to review student notes, the
> teacher's
> > > > > notes to
> > > > > verify the materials were taught and recorded by the >student, and
> the
> > > > > student's study logs. They may then be given remedial homework.
> > > Failing
> > > > > scores
> > > > > in the >school can result in charges of "dereliction of duty"
> under
> > > the
> > > > > Uniform Code of Military Justice, depending >on whether or not the
> > > > student
> > > > > was
> > > > > determined to be lacking effort, or lacking the ability to
> complete
> te
> > > > > >program.
> > > > >
> > > > > snip
> > > > >
> > > > > >The only school with a higher dropout rate is MIT and the
> preceeding
> > > > > course
> > > > > to it the nuclear field "a" school. This can be stressful
> > > > >
> > > > > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_Nuclear_Power_School
> > > > >
> > > > > >It is regarded as one of the most difficult academic programs in
> the
> > > > > world.
> > > > > Exactly exactly exactly. You have actually reinforced my precise
> > > > > point. The
> > > > > Navy Nuclear Propulsion School is significantly harder than the
> CCIE.
> > > > > Significantly harder. Why? Simple - there are actual penalties
> for
> > > > > failing.
> > > > >
> > > > > >So tell me again how hard programs are nrf. I have been there,
> > > > endured,
> > > > > and
> > > > > am here now studying for the >ccie.
> > > > >
> > > > > And it seems that you agree with me that there is a big difference
> > > > between
> > > > > a
> > > > > legitimately hard program like the nuclear power school and the
> CCIE.
> > > > >
> > > > > >There is a subtle difference the ccie is voluntary and parents do
> not
> > > > pay
> > > > > for
> > > > > it and the military will not arrest >you or mess up your whole
> life
> > > over
> > > > > it.
> > > > >
> > > > > Uh, I would hardly call that a "subtle" difference: in fact, that
> is
> > > as
> > > > > big
> > > > > of a difference as they come. There are actual penalties for
> > > performing
> > > > > poorly in the nuclear power school. Not so with the CCIE.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >So I can compare the CCIE Program to that of one of the most
> rigorous
> > > > > programs in the world today and >for the past 50 years and not be
> > > > ashamed
> > > > > to
> > > > > do so.
> > > > > >I've considered the legal and medical professions and they are
> not
> as
> > > > > attractive to me. I'm a life-long >learner by design. The CCIE
> > > program
> > > > > and
> > > > > beyond offer that "rush" to me. You speak of stress. Qualify
> >for
> me
> > > > > what
> > > > > you call stress.
> > > > >
> > > > > Well, stress would be a situation, as you described, where there
> are
> > > > > serious
> > > > > penalties for failing. I said it before, I'll say it again, what
> > > > exactly
> > > > > are
> > > > > the penalties for failing the CCIE? Basically, you just lose a
> lab
> > > fee
> > > > > and a
> > > > > day of your time. Honestly, so what? Many people actually budget
> > > those
> > > > > factors into the total cost of becoming a CCIE.
> > > > >
> > > > > Look people. I hardly see why this is such a controversial point.
> I
> > > am
> > > > > simply pointing out that Cisco allows people to take the exam over
> and
> > > > > over
> > > > > again, and as a result, many people do exactly that in lieu of
> actual
> > > > > proper
> > > > > preparation. This is especially true for those people who happen
> to
> > > > work
> > > > > for
> > > > > employers (i.e. VAR's) who are located near to test centers who
> are
> > > > > willing to
> > > > > pay for their employee's numerous test attempts. Heck, I used to
> work
> > > > for
> > > > > a
> > > > > Silicon Valley VAR that would routinely pay to send their
> employees
> to
> > > > > take
> > > > > the CCIE exam over and over again, figuring that eventually,
> they'll
> > > all
> > > > > pass.
> > > > > {To be sure, that VAR eventually went out of business, and maybe
> > > that's
> > > > > not a
> > > > > coincidence.}
> > > > >
> > > > > Besides, for those who would continue to debate this point, let me
> ask
> > > > you
> > > > > -
> > > > > why do you continue to defend the practice of allowing people to
> take
> > > > the
> > > > > exam
> > > > > over and over again as many times as they want? Why exactly is
> that
> a
> > > > > good
> > > > > thing? I can think of several reasons for why it's a bad
> practice,
> > > > which
> > > > > I
> > > > > enumerate here:
> > > > >
> > > > > * It compromises the integrity of the exam, and by extension, the
> > > > > certification itself. Like I said, if you keep taking the exam
> over
> > > and
> > > > > over
> > > > > again, then eventually you're going to see questions that you saw
> > > > before.
> > > > > Either that, or you're eventually going to get the specific
> version
> of
> > > > the
> > > > > exam that has those very questions regarding topics that you know
> how
> > > to
> > > > > answer and no questions regarding topics that you don't know how
> to
> > > > > answer.
> > > > > Either way, the constant "do-overs" ultimately results in a lower
> > > > quality
> > > > > of
> > > > > CCIE.
> > > > >
> > > > > *It discourages people from studying properly. After all, it is
> only
> > > > > natural
> > > > > for people who know that if they can just repeat the exam, then
> they
> > > > don't
> > > > > really need to prepare properly for each attempt, and in fact, can
> use
> > > > > each
> > > > > attempt as "practice". Contrast the CCIE process with what
> > > happened
> > > > > when
> > > > > we all were in grade school. You couldn't just keep taking the
> same
> > > > test
> > > > > over
> > > > > and over again until you got the grade that you wanted. Your
> teacher
> > > > was
> > > > > going to give you the test ONCE, and your grade was your grade.
> If
> > > you
> > > > > didn't
> > > > > prepare properly, then you got a bad grade, and that's too bad for
> > > you.
> > > > > Hence, it behooved you to put in the proper preparation. Or think
> > > about
> > > > > it
> > > > > from a sports standpoint. The New England Patriots can't just
> keep
> > > > > demanding
> > > > > to replay the NY Giants in the Superbowl over and over again until
> > > they
> > > > > finally won. They play a one-shot game, and if they lost, then
> they
> > > > lost.
> > > > > Which means that the Patriots should have prepared better. If
> the
> > > > > Patriots
> > > > > knew they could just keep replaying the Superbowl until they
> finally
> > > > win,
> > > > > then
> > > > > what exactly is the incentive to put in the proper preparation?
> > > > >
> > > > > *It clogs up the system. As I think many of us know,
> availability
> of
> > > > > test
> > > > > seats is still a problem, especially in some of the smaller test
> > > > > sites. Yet
> > > > > that's because many of those seats are taken up by people who
> haven't
> > > > > bothered
> > > > > to prepare properly and are just using their attempt for
> "practice"
> > > > and/or
> > > > > are
> > > > > otherwise just taking the exam over and over again until they
> finally
> > > > > pass.
> > > > > These people are denying seats from others who did properly
> prepare.
> > > > >
> > > > > Now, look. I'd like to think I'm a reasonable guy. I am not
> > > demanding
> > > > > that
> > > > > everybody needs to pass the exam on their first shot, or even
> their
> > > > first
> > > > > few
> > > > > shots. What I am saying is that I think there should be
> reasonable
> > > > > policies
> > > > > to discourage people from taking the exam over and over. For
> example,
> > > > > perhaps
> > > > > there should be a yearly limit, i.e. every person can take the
> exam
> 3
> > > > > times in
> > > > > one year. Or perhaps a lifetime limit of, say, 10-15 total
> attempts.
> > > > Or
> > > > > maybe the price for each additional lab attempt should increase
> the
> > > more
> > > > > times
> > > > > you fail. Or maybe lab seat priority should be allotted in a
> manner
> of
> > > > > 'weighted fair queueing', where first-time test-takers get highest
> > > > > priority
> > > > > for seating, and those who failed the exam numerous times get the
> > > lowest
> > > > > priority. I think any or all of these proposals are quite
> > > > > reasonable. For
> > > > > example, if you can't pass the exam after 10 or 15 attempts, I
> think
> > > > it's
> > > > > reasonable to assume that you never will and you ought to let
> somebody
> > > > > else
> > > > > have your seat. Another proposal would be to simply publish how
> many
> > > > > attempts
> > > > > a person required before he actually passed.
> > > > >
> > > > > But for those who would continue to debate this point, please, by
> all
> > > > > means,
> > > > > tell us why a policy of unlimited attempts is a good thing. I
> would
> > > be
> > > > > very
> > > > > interested in hearing such an argument because I certainly can't
> think
> > > > of
> > > > > any
> > > > > good reasons for why it would be so.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> _____________________________________________________________________
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> > > >
> > > >
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> > >
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