From: Gary Duncanson (gary.duncanson@googlemail.com)
Date: Mon Apr 14 2008 - 01:07:35 ART
I'm sure there are many people who find the lousy $100K remark a little
unfair.. Not least very hardworking employees supporting families and
putting plenty of overtime in for their employers as well as on the cisco
study homefront. They should not feel that they are less smart because they
go the FTE option and pull in a paycheck 'around' $100K.
So far as bootcamps and classes go, people take them for all kinds of
reasons. They remain an option. Although for my part I seem to have passed
them up over the years which probably explains the datacentre and teetering
bookshelf in the spare bedroom.
Sh*t it's 5am here. I must get some sleep before I start work.
Peace.
Gary
----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry Letterman (lletterm)" <lletterm@cisco.com>
To: "Joseph Brunner" <joe@affirmedsystems.com>; "Joshua" <jnccia@gmail.com>;
"Ramy Sisy" <ramysisy@ipknowledgenet.com>; "Cisco certification"
<ccielab@groupstudy.com>; "Paul Cosgrove" <paul.cosgrove@heanet.ie>
Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 3:10 AM
Subject: RE: ********
> How many of those guys/gals fighting for you in Iraq so that you can
> make that lousy
> 100K salary that you don't think is very good are making anywhere close
> to that for getting shot
> At...last time I checked a 6 fig salary was still way ahead of the
> average in the USA..
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
> Joseph Brunner
> Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 8:52 PM
> To: 'Joshua'; 'Ramy Sisy'; 'Cisco certification'; 'Paul Cosgrove'
> Subject: RE: ********
>
> "The type of person who will need a bootcamp to get
> them motivated to approach greatness, is not same type
> of person who has such a strong self-starter they can
> just stay at home, save the money and show the
> discipline to be great on their own."
>
> .....is nothing short of elitist"
>
>>we live in an elitist world. Get used to it.
>>going from making a lousy $100k a year to real money is
>>elitist too, would you agree? Hence why we study so damn hard...
>>You can be bootcamper and ask your boss for a raise every year
>>when gas prices go up, or you can get smart and make your own
>>way in the world. Frankly, I don't have time for the first option.
>
> "Someone lit your fire and nurtured your zest for learning. I have yet
> to
> meet a single person who has done it completely "on their own", without
> anyone else to teach them, push them, or just to support them in their
> efforts"
>
>>Ok, I'll admit; Yup a slimeball (who will remain nameless) told me
>>and I quote...
>>"well we'll get you in for the day to day, but we have a CCIE
>>for the design and build out". That was 13 months ago.
>>I don't take classes, just use google, the doc cd, and the cli
>>BTW:
>>God bless all the men and women who are in Iraq, or have come back with
>>injuries physical and mental. Triple bless all those who have given all
> for
>>us to be here writing these posts.
>
> -Joe
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joshua [mailto:jnccia@gmail.com]
> Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 9:26 PM
> To: 'Joseph Brunner'; 'Ramy Sisy'; 'Cisco certification'; 'Paul
> Cosgrove'
> Subject: RE: ********
>
> I agree with some of what you have stated. Except that
> bootcamps are great if it is understood that there are
> limitations to what a bootcamp will provide. For me,
> they are a great way to ramp up and use as a launch pad
> for further studies. Or, find the weaknesses that I
> have in my understanding of the technologies. It is no
> different than going to a regular university.
> Regardless of what you learn in class, you still have
> much work to do. Bootcamps alone will not make you a
> CCIE. However, having a bad instructor or labs that
> that don't work because there were poorly developed,
> not validated, or better yet, copied from somewhere
> else without verification, will definitely slow your
> butt down. A great instructor will help clarify the
> misunderstanding of the various technologies, close the
> gap, help give you direction and even nudge you when
> you are tired.
>
> This statement,
>
> "The type of person who will need a bootcamp to get
> them motivated to approach greatness, is not same type
> of person who has such a strong self-starter they can
> just stay at home, save the money and show the
> discipline to be great on their own."
>
> .....is nothing short of elitist.
>
> There many reasons why a person may need the bootcamp.
> Time is a huge factor for most people's busy lives.
> They may be circumstances or problems in life that are
> too great to try to simultaneously pursue CCIE studies.
> How about deployment to Iraq? How about
> re-acclimation to civilian world after three years in
> the freakin' desert? How about a divorce after 15 years
> of marriage once home from Iraq? Will that knock you
> off your "will" to keep studying for a CCIE? Did you
> obtain a four year degree on your own or did you go to
> school? If you did get a degree, did you ever proclaim
> to your professors that you did not need take their
> class? You can do it on your own, right?
>
> Bootcamp or university; both require more work, and
> most of the time, they need to go that extra ten miles.
> And just like any professor at an university, a good
> bootcamp instructor can only bring you so far. They
> rest is on the student. But, usually, it is the
> professor that can or will show the way, correct,
> direct, instruct and/or light that fire in a student to
> help find that motivation to want to learn and know
> more. Or just simply to show that many things are
> possible. Maybe what I should have done to prove my
> ability to be great is simply study all of the required
> courses from the university on my own without attending
> class, stay at home, saved the money and just take the
> exams. Then I would be great, no? At least according
> your type of measurement of what makes a person great.
>
>
> I do agree on another point, having taught CCNP courses
> myself eight years ago..... many of the people that
> came to a bootcamp did not care about the how's and
> why's, the do's and donts, and are not able to explain
> what was really going on. They just wanted to know only
> what was required to pass and obtain the cert. I have
> always believed that if you cannot effectively and
> efficiently troubleshoot a problem, then what good is
> the certification? What good are you as a net-engineer
> or administrator? That being said, I believe that most
> people really want to learn as much as they possibly
> can.
>
> One thing is for sure, you did not become "great" on
> your own. Someone lit your fire and nurtured your zest
> for learning. I have yet to meet a single person who
> has done it completely "on their own", without anyone
> else to teach them, push them, or just to support them
> in their efforts. And if you are as good as you
> profess, then teach others not only what you know, but
> how to get there and be a mentor. Not an elitist.
> Sometimes a person is just simply looking for someone
> to believe in them just enough to really get going.
>
> It is easier to be a monk on a mountain, than it is to
> be one among the common person.
>
> Which one are you?
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nobody@groupstudy.com
> [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of Joseph
> Brunner
> Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 4:40 PM
> To: 'Joshua'; 'Ramy Sisy'; 'Cisco certification'
> Subject: RE: ********
>
> I'm not going to trash the bootcamps...
>
> But I will say this about them... the money is better
> spent on actual lab
> attempts...
>
> D@R6Y has been to ALL the bootcamps in the world (from
> what I can tell) and
> sorry D@R6Y, he STILL hasn't passed yet...
>
> In regards to Cert Science, you can't make a person
> into CCIE in 6 weeks.
> You can't guarantee someone is smart enough to pass the
> lab, or disciplined
> enough to come back to it if they fail the lab.
>
> I am a CCNP instructor. I make my own workbooks. Many
> people who have passed
> the written and are already CCNP's are unable to do
> them. Why? One guy said
> he was just going for the lab, and now is taking my
> CCNP class in 2 weeks.
>
> A person has to commit to being great. The type of
> person who will need a
> bootcamp to get them motivated to approach greatness,
> is not same type of
> person who has such a strong self-starter they can just
> stay at home, save
> the money and show the discipline to be great on their
> own.
>
> I started teaching to find excellent people for my
> Consulting firm. Then I
> realized, wait, I am what I am because I didn't go to
> bootcamps. I taught my
> self discipline while banging away at the CLI for
> thousands of hours and
> making notes the last 8 years. I have taught over 100+
> people Cisco since
> 05/2007. Only 2 people (SO FAR) exhibit the patience
> and discipline to do
> what I do (show up and take control of a network,
> document it, fix it,
> explain what you are doing). So the Jury is still out
> on whether training is
> worth the time of the INSTRUCTOR.
>
> So let's forget about bootcamps on this board. Let's
> just talk about the
> technology.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nobody@groupstudy.com
> [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
> Joshua
> Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 4:14 PM
> To: 'Ramy Sisy'; 'Cisco certification'
> Subject: ********
>
> Searching for a good CCIE boot camp is no different
> than searching for a good university or advanced degree
> program to which to attend. Many schools just simply
> have stronger programs and have a much better
> reputation than most others. Bottom line is that the
> student is just going to have to do their homework to
> figure out which to attend. Depending on the school of
> choice, the student may have to do more work at one
> school versus another. And like most schools, there
> are professors that very highly respected and maybe
> even become a trusted mentor for many students. Then,
> there are the "other" professors who just plain suck
> and you are left with questioning just how in the hell
> that person made it through the vetting process.
> Chances are, it is because of that one professor that
> will slow your progress. CCIE boot camp/schools and
> instructors are no different. Some are just damn
> awesome, while others will essentially drive a stake
> into the ground through your foot.
>
> $Nar--bik" was banned because former students were
> commenting about the high quality of his classes.
> But, from what I have seen on GS, certainly not any
> more than formers students who have attended competing
> boot camps. What made $Dar**by's situation different
> was that he posted daily reports while attending
> *Nar-B-iks class. He was giving a daily account of
> **Narb-ik's professionalism, abilities as an
> instructor, the quality of his classroom instruction,
> curriculum and what topics we covered. This was from a
> student's point of view. Grant it, *Darby probably
> over did it. *Dar*by knew that he was probably
> stepping over the line. But, why ban *&Narb-ik?
>
> I was in *Narb--iks class, alongside *Da---rby, when
> *Dar*by was banned by P*aul B@orghese. There is one
> thing *Dar*by was right about. When it comes to high
> quality hardcore boot camps, *^Nar--bik's class is a
> real threat to &^Cert-Scie_nce and several other
> companies. I know. I attended the Cer-t-sci-ence boot
> camp. Unless you want to be ripped off $8K+, I
> wouldn't recommend the program, period. I have also
> attended INX and Netmasterclass. *Nar*bi-k, INX and
> NetMasterClass are worth every penny. I have never
> attended Scott Morris' class, but I have met the man
> and he is clearly a hardcore CCIE much like N*ar*bik,
> INX, and Netmasterclass. You cannot go wrong with any
> of these guys, for the exception of one.
>
> Nonetheless, I have not seen *Nar--bik push his class,
> like some others have. I have never seen him attach
> huge or sometimes obnoxious signature blocks like some
> others. I have not seen *Narbi--k advertise his class
> in any way, other than to inform someone to email him
> directly, if they had questions about his class. So,
> why ban *Narb--ik??? He has contributed to so many
> passing their labs by answering so many questions that
> others could not do on their own. Just as Scott, Brian
> Dennis, Brian McGahan, Bruce Caslow, Bob Sinclair and
> several others have done.
>
> *Narb-ik$ had nothing but good things to say about
> Scott Morris, Internetwork-experts, and Netmaster's.
> He just never had anything to say about C*ert-Sc*ience.
> You know; if you don't have anything good to
> say..........??? Hmmmmm.... CertScience...... Paul
> Borghese...... Ban &Narb**ik....... Has the the
> Patriot Act has come to GS....??? I know, I know. That
> was a bit much. But still, it does beg for questions
> when looking at the motivation for banning *Narb*ik.
> Why not ban all instructors from training companies, if
> there are so many complaints about this stuff?
>
> Complaints?? The IPExpert, Netmasterclass and
> Internetwork Experts have nothing to worry about.
> Their reputation precedes them. If others are
> threatened by it, then they need to step up the quality
> of their CCIE boot camp learning experience, as well as
> their level of professionalism. Or better yet, go
> beyond the norm. The point of competition is to push
> the limits, find better ways and hopefully, increase
> the quality of just about anything, including the
> learning experience. If a CCIE hopeful asks for
> feedback about any persons experience in reference to
> any one of the CCIE boot camps, the GS door is going to
> open. And it will swing both ways. Former students
> are going to chime in. It is the nature of the beast
> on this forum.
>
> It seems to me that if you want to create a forum for
> pure CCIE studies, without this adolescent bickering
> crap, then simply dis-allow any form of advertisement
> or promotion altogether. Including the *CertScience
> signature automatically attached to the bottom of the
> GS emails. If it cannot be stopped, then try to
> control it via a solution. GS is and has been the
> largest CCIE forum in the world. So, why not let it
> pay for itself. Paid advertisements??? Maybe a banner
> or set of links at the bottom of all GS emails. Anyone
> caught advertising or promoting anything beyond the
> banner/links, will be kicked off. Simple as that. If
> it is too difficult to "police" the forum on this
> level, oh well. It is, unfortunately, one of those
> problems to which a solution will need to be found.
> Or..... just deal with the problem. Hey, just shutdown
> GS? Problem solved.
>
> My $.02 worth Wait, now its $.0125.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nobody@groupstudy.com
> [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of CCIE
> Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 10:15 AM
> To: 'Ramy Sisy'; 'ccie girl'; 'Cisco certification'
> Subject: RE: OT Darby
>
> What do you mean "Nar---bik is not showing since 18
> JAN???
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nobody@groupstudy.com
> [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of Ramy Sisy
> Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 9:59 PM
> To: 'ccie girl'; 'Cisco certification'
> Subject: RE: OT Darby
>
> Probably he was filtered after his last post "Nar
>
> bik's Bootcamp Chronicles - Day 1".
>
> Also Nar
>
> bik, he is not showing since 18 Jan?!
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------
> Thanks,
> Ramy Sisy
> CCIE#17321 (Security), CCSI#30417
> http://www.linkedin.com/in/RAMYSISY
>
> CCIE Security Content Manager/ Technical Instructor
> http://www.CCBOOTCAMP.com
> -----------------------------------------------
>
> "Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more
> complex, and more
> violent. It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of
> courage - to move in the
> opposite direction" Albert Einstein
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nobody@groupstudy.com
> [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of ccie
> girl
> Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 2:53 PM
> To: Cisco certification
> Subject: OT Darby
>
> ..is it just me or does anyone else miss Mr Weaver's
> input?
>
> I hope he is OK.
>
>
> Pass the CCIE in six weeks, Guaranteed!
> http://www.certscience.com/CCIE
> _______________________________________________________
> ________________
> Subscription information may be found at:
> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
>
>
> Pass the CCIE in six weeks, Guaranteed!
> http://www.certscience.com/CCIE
> _______________________________________________________
> ________________
> Subscription information may be found at:
> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
>
>
> Pass the CCIE in six weeks, Guaranteed!
> http://www.certscience.com/CCIE
> _______________________________________________________________________
> Subscription information may be found at:
> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
>
>
> Pass the CCIE in six weeks, Guaranteed!
> http://www.certscience.com/CCIE
> _______________________________________________________________________
> Subscription information may be found at:
> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
Pass the CCIE in six weeks, Guaranteed!
http://www.certscience.com/CCIE
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