From: Darby Weaver (darbyweaver@yahoo.com)
Date: Sat Feb 10 2007 - 19:45:04 ART
Hmmm...
I hate break it to you my friend, but experience comes
in many flavors.
If you are the engineer who only works on a production
network to "learn things" then you are not only a
problem, but a threat to a well run network (some
folks do have a mini-netowrk to play on - i know many
more who do not).
I value experience, but being "experienced", I also
realize that the average Joe only sees probably less
than 5-10 hours of real network engineering per any
given week.
Now for some rare engineers this may differ, but take
this into account:
1. Meetings, Meetings, and More Meetings
2. Vacation/Holidays/Sick/Other
3. Other duties as required
4. time spent verifying something is not your problem
5. Other Admin Overhead.
6. Research
7. Documentation (and some forget this part entirely)
8. Email/Newsgroups etc.
So for most folks who claim to have 10 years
experience... Let's see?
5hr (per week) x 50 = 250 hours per year x 10 2500
hours or so...
And in many cases this may be overkill. If not, then
one probably has a really challenged network anyway
and may need more training anyway or other
consideration i.e. "more experienced engineer".
I mean it does not take a rocket scientist to
systematically resolve an entire network - if one is
"experienced".
Who will tell me I am wrong?
Now if the "experienced" guy has 2500 hours on the
equipment over 10 years (We'll give him a few more
hours for those big upgrades that might happen every 5
years or so... Say another 500 hours - say 6 weeks per
5 years of intense hands-on time).
Now our jock has 3000 hours or so of hands-on after 10
years.
With any luck - that guy has been to at least 2 1-week
classes per year with at least 40% hands-on per class.
20 weeks = 16 hrs x 20 = 320 hours or so...
Less than 3500 hours and I promise you this is
probably a big overstatement.
Now take our lab rats...
How many hours do you guys have? Almost anyone will
agree that a CCIE who has passed will have required at
least 500-1000 hours of intense 8-hour labs.
Never mind the hours spent per technology, reading,
classes (with expert tutors - usually 1 to 5-8
students or less) and researching each topic.
Sorry, the typical lab rat will take about 2-3 years
of studying and do so on and off the clock.
My thoughts are about 1000-2000 hours labbing,
reading, other studies, etc. per year.
Hmmm...
I think the people who are "experienced" are
rightfully scared out of their wits when an
"experienced lab rat" comes along...
For very good reasons.
So what I am saying is that a typically experienced
person may have a lot of soft-skills gained over a
period of years.
A lab rat, will typically be a more hardened by the
fire type of person with a lot of actual experience
trying each feature till exhaustion.
So, the end result being that the lab rat, if one
truly is a lab rat, will probably be more experienced
than many "experienced" people in the field with more
years of experience.
But hey, in the end I can only speak of myself.
I know I am what some may call an "experienced"
admin/engineer etc.
However, I know where my strengths are and I even work
on several 10,000+ user networks and have run networks
as large as 50,000 users being the lead guy.
And I can tell you now, my own home lab, book library,
and electronic resources are what has helped me stand
above the crowd time after time, year after year and
will probably do so for years to come.
Even when I do not get as much time to work out every
single detail.
I've known quite a few guys who were born and bred on
this list and have come from this group.
Some starting off very modestly and some with varied
backgrounds.
These people earned their wings.
Now considering that many people consider the CCIE Lab
a very stressful event in their lives, I would liken
the event to raising one's heart rate very similar to
a severe network outage or work-related emergency
requiring a lot of skill, expertise and cool nerves.
Now, I have been to the lab, have taken at least 12
practice "Mock" Labs as well, I can assure my heart
was beating at least as fast as several
network/systems emergencies that I have successfully
dealt with over the years:
1. Data Recovery of failed Raid (a few of these over
the years - hd or controller).
2. That time I slipped and wiped out a DNS Server and
had to bring it back - yep - lived and learned.
3. All those times when something "mission-critical"
had to be done and done now.
4. When the Core Switch dropped a blade on the 4th of
July weekend - 30,000+ people at the gates.
5. The list goes on and on...
So if these things raised my body temp a bit, and they
did, I promise you, I felt at least as stressed by
each Mock Lab and by my attempts at the real lab.
So - I'd call these things experience.
I call all my hours reading and watching videos
experience as well.
I call all my hours explaining things or getting them
explained to me excellent experience.
Anyone who is "experienced" think differently?
I said this recently in another forum and I will say
it here again:
Even after I get my CCIE or even multiple CCIE's, I
will still continue to visit the various vendors each
year for training, just to ensure I still have my
skills at the level they are now or at the level
required to pass a given lab.
I mean in my mind, the idea to is to retain the
knowledge, not just pass an exam.
I know some may think the next statement is stupid but
I'm gonna risk saying it anyway.
I even feel that by not passing my lab on the first or
second attempt, is not a bad thing, since they made me
realize how thorough the testing was in relation to
how I thought I had prepared for them.
Basically, I do not mind failing (I do like passing
better), but my end goal is to learn the technology,
and in truth, I could have skipped going to the lab
both times since I knew I was not quite ready either
time.
However, I wanted the "experience" of going even if it
meant an almost certainty of failure.
Yep, I had heard a lot and needed to see for myself.
Today, I have been twice, I know I do not get the time
conistently to study the way I would prefer, but I do
know I have made considerable progress and have, by
far, throughly enjoyed the journey.
I can assure you I know more this February than I did
last year after I left NMC-1 for the first time in
late January 2006.
However, as a realist, I know I still have areas I
want to explore further - with or without a CCIE.
So yes, when I see a lab rat, I know I am facing a
person who wanted to learn badly enough to spend
his/her own times, money, and resources to get that
experience whatever it may be, and I can respect that.
Besides some of the biggest "lab rats" here are guys
like Bruce Caslow, Brian Dennis, Brad Ellis, Scott
Morris, Narbik Kochans, Val Pavlichenko, Bob and the
list goes on.
I can assure you these guys can hold their own against
many an "experienced" network engineer.
And so can a vast number of their students - in fact
many of the best "experienced" network engineers were
probably a student at some point anyway or a person
who has read one of their books, been to a class, or
whatever...
All in all, I'd think a good lab rat can probably do
the job most if not every time.
And if a person is truly experienced, then that person
knows he/she has to keep skills up to date and will
appreciate a good lab rat when one sees one.
Just my humble opinion...
But hey, I'm trying to study here...
Later
--- Tom Larus <tlarus@cox.net> wrote:
> If you, Du Jianbo, really believe that the CCIE can
> ever be considered a
> paper certification, then you:
>
> 1) do not know how hard the process of passing the
> CCIE Lab is (a lot of
> us underestimated the difficulty for the first few
> months of preparation)
> or
> 2) you think the CCIE is really not all that
> valuable, in which case it
> probably is not worth the effort
> or
> 3) you have heard of people who cheated to pass it,
> so it really was not
> as hard for them as it ought to have been
> or
> 4) you have CCIE and just don't want more
> competition,
> or
> 5) you have the misconception, shared by many, that
> the CCIE is Cisco's
> imprimatur or "seal of quality" bestowed on highly
> experienced network
> engineers. Some people think that is what the CCIE
> is or should be, but
> it is a test of your ability to master a large, but
> finite, body of
> material, and execute a series of tasks fraught with
> many issues that
> will be hidden from you if you do not understand the
> material well.
>
> Sometimes I actually forget how valuable what I
> learned from preparing
> for the CCIE Lab can be in the real world, and these
> "Lab Rat" threads
> get me down, but then something happens to remind me
> that I gained
> valuable knowledge and skills and understanding.
> Recently a friend of
> mine (who has employed me in the past for some
> lucrative consulting
> work) was talking to me about a problem a friend of
> his was having at
> his job site. The symptoms reminded me right away
> of one of the first
> things I learned when I was doing labs on a Cisco
> practice lab at NC
> State University. I said, "It sounds like the old
> collapsing tunnel
> problem," and explained what that meant. That was
> the clue that helped
> get the problem resolved. So it was something I
> learned in a lab, but
> it had real world value. It seemed obvious to me,
> but is not obvious to
> everyone, including a few people with a lot more
> paid experience than me.
>
> The point is that a Lab Rat should not be made Lead
> Engineer, but will
> still add considerable value to a team. By this I
> mean the kind of
> value that vastly exceeds what we normally associate
> with a "paper
> certification."
>
> Best regards,
> Tom Larus, CCIE #10,014
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Du, Jianbo wrote:
>
> >Totally agree! Without working experience, CCIE
> cert is a paper only.
> >
> >
> >Regards,
> >Jerry
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: nobody@groupstudy.com
> [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
> >Gobind
> >Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2007 4:08 AM
> >To: Faryar Zabihi (fzabihi); Seemore Tops;
> ccielab@groupstudy.com
> >Subject: RE: Lab rats make me mad
> >
> >I completely agree with Faryar,i.e. the Lab Rats
> really keep the value
> >of CCIE.
> >
> >Gobind
> >
> >
> >
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: fzabihi@cisco.com
> >>Sent: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 14:03:07 -0500
> >>To: topass_ccie12@hotmail.com,
> ccielab@groupstudy.com
> >>Subject: RE: Lab rats make me mad
> >>
> >>Lol...how about something better since these lab
> rats actually know
> >>
> >>
> >the
> >
> >
> >>stuff.
> >>How about the thousands of people who have a ccie
> but can't even
> >>
> >>
> >properly
> >
> >
> >>reverse telnet into a router or even spell dhcp.
> I say on ur 3rd
> >>recert...u
> >>take the lab again or something harder than the
> freakin written. I
> >>personnaly
> >>think the lab rats keep the value of the ccie and
> don't allow it to be
> >>
> >>
> >a
> >
> >
> >>political cert.
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >>From: Seemore Tops
> [mailto:topass_ccie12@hotmail.com]
> >>Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 01:50 PM Eastern
> Standard Time
> >>To: ccielab@groupstudy.com
> >>Subject: Lab rats make me mad
> >>
> >>I think Cisco needs to create a policy similar to
> the CISSP for work
> >>experience for CCIE certification. I think this
> would stop the lab
> >>
> >>
> >rats
> >
> >
> >>from getting into the system.
> >>
>
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> >
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> >>
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> >>
>
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> >
> >
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> >>
> >>
> >>
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> >
> >
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> >>
> >>
> >
>
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> >
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This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.4 : Thu Mar 01 2007 - 07:38:46 ART