From: Josef A (josefnet@gmail.com)
Date: Sat Feb 10 2007 - 20:21:07 ART
Well said Darby! ...Now I think you are a book rat!!...you almost wrote a
book :-)
On 2/10/07, Darby Weaver <darbyweaver@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Hmmm...
>
> I hate break it to you my friend, but experience comes
> in many flavors.
>
> If you are the engineer who only works on a production
> network to "learn things" then you are not only a
> problem, but a threat to a well run network (some
> folks do have a mini-netowrk to play on - i know many
> more who do not).
>
> I value experience, but being "experienced", I also
> realize that the average Joe only sees probably less
> than 5-10 hours of real network engineering per any
> given week.
>
> Now for some rare engineers this may differ, but take
> this into account:
>
> 1. Meetings, Meetings, and More Meetings
> 2. Vacation/Holidays/Sick/Other
> 3. Other duties as required
> 4. time spent verifying something is not your problem
> 5. Other Admin Overhead.
> 6. Research
> 7. Documentation (and some forget this part entirely)
> 8. Email/Newsgroups etc.
>
> So for most folks who claim to have 10 years
> experience... Let's see?
>
> 5hr (per week) x 50 = 250 hours per year x 10 2500
> hours or so...
>
> And in many cases this may be overkill. If not, then
> one probably has a really challenged network anyway
> and may need more training anyway or other
> consideration i.e. "more experienced engineer".
>
> I mean it does not take a rocket scientist to
> systematically resolve an entire network - if one is
> "experienced".
>
> Who will tell me I am wrong?
>
> Now if the "experienced" guy has 2500 hours on the
> equipment over 10 years (We'll give him a few more
> hours for those big upgrades that might happen every 5
> years or so... Say another 500 hours - say 6 weeks per
> 5 years of intense hands-on time).
>
> Now our jock has 3000 hours or so of hands-on after 10
> years.
>
> With any luck - that guy has been to at least 2 1-week
> classes per year with at least 40% hands-on per class.
>
> 20 weeks = 16 hrs x 20 = 320 hours or so...
>
> Less than 3500 hours and I promise you this is
> probably a big overstatement.
>
> Now take our lab rats...
>
> How many hours do you guys have? Almost anyone will
> agree that a CCIE who has passed will have required at
> least 500-1000 hours of intense 8-hour labs.
>
> Never mind the hours spent per technology, reading,
> classes (with expert tutors - usually 1 to 5-8
> students or less) and researching each topic.
>
> Sorry, the typical lab rat will take about 2-3 years
> of studying and do so on and off the clock.
>
> My thoughts are about 1000-2000 hours labbing,
> reading, other studies, etc. per year.
>
> Hmmm...
>
> I think the people who are "experienced" are
> rightfully scared out of their wits when an
> "experienced lab rat" comes along...
>
> For very good reasons.
>
> So what I am saying is that a typically experienced
> person may have a lot of soft-skills gained over a
> period of years.
>
> A lab rat, will typically be a more hardened by the
> fire type of person with a lot of actual experience
> trying each feature till exhaustion.
>
> So, the end result being that the lab rat, if one
> truly is a lab rat, will probably be more experienced
> than many "experienced" people in the field with more
> years of experience.
>
> But hey, in the end I can only speak of myself.
>
> I know I am what some may call an "experienced"
> admin/engineer etc.
>
> However, I know where my strengths are and I even work
> on several 10,000+ user networks and have run networks
> as large as 50,000 users being the lead guy.
>
> And I can tell you now, my own home lab, book library,
> and electronic resources are what has helped me stand
> above the crowd time after time, year after year and
> will probably do so for years to come.
>
> Even when I do not get as much time to work out every
> single detail.
>
> I've known quite a few guys who were born and bred on
> this list and have come from this group.
>
> Some starting off very modestly and some with varied
> backgrounds.
>
> These people earned their wings.
>
> Now considering that many people consider the CCIE Lab
> a very stressful event in their lives, I would liken
> the event to raising one's heart rate very similar to
> a severe network outage or work-related emergency
> requiring a lot of skill, expertise and cool nerves.
>
> Now, I have been to the lab, have taken at least 12
> practice "Mock" Labs as well, I can assure my heart
> was beating at least as fast as several
> network/systems emergencies that I have successfully
> dealt with over the years:
>
> 1. Data Recovery of failed Raid (a few of these over
> the years - hd or controller).
>
> 2. That time I slipped and wiped out a DNS Server and
> had to bring it back - yep - lived and learned.
>
> 3. All those times when something "mission-critical"
> had to be done and done now.
>
> 4. When the Core Switch dropped a blade on the 4th of
> July weekend - 30,000+ people at the gates.
>
> 5. The list goes on and on...
>
> So if these things raised my body temp a bit, and they
> did, I promise you, I felt at least as stressed by
> each Mock Lab and by my attempts at the real lab.
>
> So - I'd call these things experience.
>
> I call all my hours reading and watching videos
> experience as well.
>
> I call all my hours explaining things or getting them
> explained to me excellent experience.
>
> Anyone who is "experienced" think differently?
>
> I said this recently in another forum and I will say
> it here again:
>
> Even after I get my CCIE or even multiple CCIE's, I
> will still continue to visit the various vendors each
> year for training, just to ensure I still have my
> skills at the level they are now or at the level
> required to pass a given lab.
>
> I mean in my mind, the idea to is to retain the
> knowledge, not just pass an exam.
>
> I know some may think the next statement is stupid but
> I'm gonna risk saying it anyway.
>
> I even feel that by not passing my lab on the first or
> second attempt, is not a bad thing, since they made me
> realize how thorough the testing was in relation to
> how I thought I had prepared for them.
>
> Basically, I do not mind failing (I do like passing
> better), but my end goal is to learn the technology,
> and in truth, I could have skipped going to the lab
> both times since I knew I was not quite ready either
> time.
>
> However, I wanted the "experience" of going even if it
> meant an almost certainty of failure.
>
> Yep, I had heard a lot and needed to see for myself.
>
> Today, I have been twice, I know I do not get the time
> conistently to study the way I would prefer, but I do
> know I have made considerable progress and have, by
> far, throughly enjoyed the journey.
>
> I can assure you I know more this February than I did
> last year after I left NMC-1 for the first time in
> late January 2006.
>
> However, as a realist, I know I still have areas I
> want to explore further - with or without a CCIE.
>
> So yes, when I see a lab rat, I know I am facing a
> person who wanted to learn badly enough to spend
> his/her own times, money, and resources to get that
> experience whatever it may be, and I can respect that.
>
> Besides some of the biggest "lab rats" here are guys
> like Bruce Caslow, Brian Dennis, Brad Ellis, Scott
> Morris, Narbik Kochans, Val Pavlichenko, Bob and the
> list goes on.
>
> I can assure you these guys can hold their own against
> many an "experienced" network engineer.
>
> And so can a vast number of their students - in fact
> many of the best "experienced" network engineers were
> probably a student at some point anyway or a person
> who has read one of their books, been to a class, or
> whatever...
>
> All in all, I'd think a good lab rat can probably do
> the job most if not every time.
>
> And if a person is truly experienced, then that person
> knows he/she has to keep skills up to date and will
> appreciate a good lab rat when one sees one.
>
> Just my humble opinion...
>
> But hey, I'm trying to study here...
>
> Later
>
>
>
> --- Tom Larus <tlarus@cox.net> wrote:
>
> > If you, Du Jianbo, really believe that the CCIE can
> > ever be considered a
> > paper certification, then you:
> >
> > 1) do not know how hard the process of passing the
> > CCIE Lab is (a lot of
> > us underestimated the difficulty for the first few
> > months of preparation)
> > or
> > 2) you think the CCIE is really not all that
> > valuable, in which case it
> > probably is not worth the effort
> > or
> > 3) you have heard of people who cheated to pass it,
> > so it really was not
> > as hard for them as it ought to have been
> > or
> > 4) you have CCIE and just don't want more
> > competition,
> > or
> > 5) you have the misconception, shared by many, that
> > the CCIE is Cisco's
> > imprimatur or "seal of quality" bestowed on highly
> > experienced network
> > engineers. Some people think that is what the CCIE
> > is or should be, but
> > it is a test of your ability to master a large, but
> > finite, body of
> > material, and execute a series of tasks fraught with
> > many issues that
> > will be hidden from you if you do not understand the
> > material well.
> >
> > Sometimes I actually forget how valuable what I
> > learned from preparing
> > for the CCIE Lab can be in the real world, and these
> > "Lab Rat" threads
> > get me down, but then something happens to remind me
> > that I gained
> > valuable knowledge and skills and understanding.
> > Recently a friend of
> > mine (who has employed me in the past for some
> > lucrative consulting
> > work) was talking to me about a problem a friend of
> > his was having at
> > his job site. The symptoms reminded me right away
> > of one of the first
> > things I learned when I was doing labs on a Cisco
> > practice lab at NC
> > State University. I said, "It sounds like the old
> > collapsing tunnel
> > problem," and explained what that meant. That was
> > the clue that helped
> > get the problem resolved. So it was something I
> > learned in a lab, but
> > it had real world value. It seemed obvious to me,
> > but is not obvious to
> > everyone, including a few people with a lot more
> > paid experience than me.
> >
> > The point is that a Lab Rat should not be made Lead
> > Engineer, but will
> > still add considerable value to a team. By this I
> > mean the kind of
> > value that vastly exceeds what we normally associate
> > with a "paper
> > certification."
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Tom Larus, CCIE #10,014
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Du, Jianbo wrote:
> >
> > >Totally agree! Without working experience, CCIE
> > cert is a paper only.
> > >
> > >
> > >Regards,
> > >Jerry
> > >
> > >-----Original Message-----
> > >From: nobody@groupstudy.com
> > [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
> > >Gobind
> > >Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2007 4:08 AM
> > >To: Faryar Zabihi (fzabihi); Seemore Tops;
> > ccielab@groupstudy.com
> > >Subject: RE: Lab rats make me mad
> > >
> > >I completely agree with Faryar,i.e. the Lab Rats
> > really keep the value
> > >of CCIE.
> > >
> > >Gobind
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >>-----Original Message-----
> > >>From: fzabihi@cisco.com
> > >>Sent: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 14:03:07 -0500
> > >>To: topass_ccie12@hotmail.com,
> > ccielab@groupstudy.com
> > >>Subject: RE: Lab rats make me mad
> > >>
> > >>Lol...how about something better since these lab
> > rats actually know
> > >>
> > >>
> > >the
> > >
> > >
> > >>stuff.
> > >>How about the thousands of people who have a ccie
> > but can't even
> > >>
> > >>
> > >properly
> > >
> > >
> > >>reverse telnet into a router or even spell dhcp.
> > I say on ur 3rd
> > >>recert...u
> > >>take the lab again or something harder than the
> > freakin written. I
> > >>personnaly
> > >>think the lab rats keep the value of the ccie and
> > don't allow it to be
> > >>
> > >>
> > >a
> > >
> > >
> > >>political cert.
> > >>
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >>From: Seemore Tops
> > [mailto:topass_ccie12@hotmail.com]
> > >>Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 01:50 PM Eastern
> > Standard Time
> > >>To: ccielab@groupstudy.com
> > >>Subject: Lab rats make me mad
> > >>
> > >>I think Cisco needs to create a policy similar to
> > the CISSP for work
> > >>experience for CCIE certification. I think this
> > would stop the lab
> > >>
> > >>
> > >rats
> > >
> > >
> > >>from getting into the system.
> > >>
> >
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