From: Scott Morris (swm@emanon.com)
Date: Sat Feb 10 2007 - 20:48:44 ART
Hehehehe... I'm not sure I've ever been called a lab rat before, but fair
enough. :)
I think the whole gist of things in the original posting though was
separating lab-based experience from real-life experience. There are
things we learn in real-life to round out the puzzle of what's happening.
There are things we may know (such as crappy DNS responses don't necessarily
mean a network problem) or whatever it may be. The CCIE lab didn't teach
you how to recover that DNS server that you wrote about. The CCIE
lab/studies don't teach you how to use a network sniffer/protocol analyzer
or other tools to assist in tracking problems down. They don't teach you
about server or OS issues that lead to networking problems.
IF someone were truly a CCIE lab rat, there are many things they may not
have a clue about. On the other hand, those who know the details about
their own network and can analyze things may not have a clue about how to
optimize a BGP/OSPF table.
These are the types of things (IMHO) that were being lamented early on on
the experience differential. I see things like it all the time. Great
engineers who can design networks and crank out command sets without any
problems, but the first time something doesn't work right they have a
serious lack of knowledge about troubleshooting. Or better, when it comes
to "physical layer" things, they are clueless.
These things all round someone out in the experience. 20 years working on a
stable network doesn't teach you much (other than it was fairly well
designed to begin with, or nobody cares!). It is ALL of the experiences of
life that keep things moving along.
On a side note, I have most certainly done more technically complex and
bizarre things in a lab environment than I have ever done in real life (for
good reasons!). But in real life, I have worked on much larger networks
then I'd ever want to lab up from scratch! :)
Ya gotta be able to see it all! Everything is experience. Nothing is the
"best". It's all part of the total package. Make it as good as you can!
Scott Morris, CCIE4 (R&S/ISP-Dial/Security/Service Provider) #4713, JNCIE
#153, CISSP, et al.
CCSI/JNCI-M/JNCI-J
IPexpert VP - Curriculum Development
IPexpert Sr. Technical Instructor
smorris@ipexpert.com
http://www.ipexpert.com
-----Original Message-----
From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
Darby Weaver
Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2007 5:45 PM
To: Tom Larus; Du, Jianbo
Cc: Gobind; Faryar Zabihi (fzabihi); Seemore Tops; ccielab@groupstudy.com
Subject: Re: Lab rats make me mad
Hmmm...
I hate break it to you my friend, but experience comes in many flavors.
If you are the engineer who only works on a production network to "learn
things" then you are not only a problem, but a threat to a well run network
(some folks do have a mini-netowrk to play on - i know many more who do
not).
I value experience, but being "experienced", I also realize that the average
Joe only sees probably less than 5-10 hours of real network engineering per
any given week.
Now for some rare engineers this may differ, but take this into account:
1. Meetings, Meetings, and More Meetings 2. Vacation/Holidays/Sick/Other 3.
Other duties as required 4. time spent verifying something is not your
problem 5. Other Admin Overhead.
6. Research
7. Documentation (and some forget this part entirely) 8. Email/Newsgroups
etc.
So for most folks who claim to have 10 years experience... Let's see?
5hr (per week) x 50 = 250 hours per year x 10 2500 hours or so...
And in many cases this may be overkill. If not, then one probably has a
really challenged network anyway and may need more training anyway or other
consideration i.e. "more experienced engineer".
I mean it does not take a rocket scientist to systematically resolve an
entire network - if one is "experienced".
Who will tell me I am wrong?
Now if the "experienced" guy has 2500 hours on the equipment over 10 years
(We'll give him a few more hours for those big upgrades that might happen
every 5 years or so... Say another 500 hours - say 6 weeks per
5 years of intense hands-on time).
Now our jock has 3000 hours or so of hands-on after 10 years.
With any luck - that guy has been to at least 2 1-week classes per year with
at least 40% hands-on per class.
20 weeks = 16 hrs x 20 = 320 hours or so...
Less than 3500 hours and I promise you this is probably a big overstatement.
Now take our lab rats...
How many hours do you guys have? Almost anyone will agree that a CCIE who
has passed will have required at least 500-1000 hours of intense 8-hour
labs.
Never mind the hours spent per technology, reading, classes (with expert
tutors - usually 1 to 5-8 students or less) and researching each topic.
Sorry, the typical lab rat will take about 2-3 years of studying and do so
on and off the clock.
My thoughts are about 1000-2000 hours labbing, reading, other studies, etc.
per year.
Hmmm...
I think the people who are "experienced" are rightfully scared out of their
wits when an "experienced lab rat" comes along...
For very good reasons.
So what I am saying is that a typically experienced person may have a lot of
soft-skills gained over a period of years.
A lab rat, will typically be a more hardened by the fire type of person with
a lot of actual experience trying each feature till exhaustion.
So, the end result being that the lab rat, if one truly is a lab rat, will
probably be more experienced than many "experienced" people in the field
with more years of experience.
But hey, in the end I can only speak of myself.
I know I am what some may call an "experienced"
admin/engineer etc.
However, I know where my strengths are and I even work on several 10,000+
user networks and have run networks as large as 50,000 users being the lead
guy.
And I can tell you now, my own home lab, book library, and electronic
resources are what has helped me stand above the crowd time after time, year
after year and will probably do so for years to come.
Even when I do not get as much time to work out every single detail.
I've known quite a few guys who were born and bred on this list and have
come from this group.
Some starting off very modestly and some with varied backgrounds.
These people earned their wings.
Now considering that many people consider the CCIE Lab a very stressful
event in their lives, I would liken the event to raising one's heart rate
very similar to a severe network outage or work-related emergency requiring
a lot of skill, expertise and cool nerves.
Now, I have been to the lab, have taken at least 12 practice "Mock" Labs as
well, I can assure my heart was beating at least as fast as several
network/systems emergencies that I have successfully dealt with over the
years:
1. Data Recovery of failed Raid (a few of these over the years - hd or
controller).
2. That time I slipped and wiped out a DNS Server and had to bring it back -
yep - lived and learned.
3. All those times when something "mission-critical"
had to be done and done now.
4. When the Core Switch dropped a blade on the 4th of July weekend - 30,000+
people at the gates.
5. The list goes on and on...
So if these things raised my body temp a bit, and they did, I promise you, I
felt at least as stressed by each Mock Lab and by my attempts at the real
lab.
So - I'd call these things experience.
I call all my hours reading and watching videos experience as well.
I call all my hours explaining things or getting them explained to me
excellent experience.
Anyone who is "experienced" think differently?
I said this recently in another forum and I will say it here again:
Even after I get my CCIE or even multiple CCIE's, I will still continue to
visit the various vendors each year for training, just to ensure I still
have my skills at the level they are now or at the level required to pass a
given lab.
I mean in my mind, the idea to is to retain the knowledge, not just pass an
exam.
I know some may think the next statement is stupid but I'm gonna risk saying
it anyway.
I even feel that by not passing my lab on the first or second attempt, is
not a bad thing, since they made me realize how thorough the testing was in
relation to how I thought I had prepared for them.
Basically, I do not mind failing (I do like passing better), but my end goal
is to learn the technology, and in truth, I could have skipped going to the
lab both times since I knew I was not quite ready either time.
However, I wanted the "experience" of going even if it meant an almost
certainty of failure.
Yep, I had heard a lot and needed to see for myself.
Today, I have been twice, I know I do not get the time conistently to study
the way I would prefer, but I do know I have made considerable progress and
have, by far, throughly enjoyed the journey.
I can assure you I know more this February than I did last year after I left
NMC-1 for the first time in late January 2006.
However, as a realist, I know I still have areas I want to explore further -
with or without a CCIE.
So yes, when I see a lab rat, I know I am facing a person who wanted to
learn badly enough to spend his/her own times, money, and resources to get
that experience whatever it may be, and I can respect that.
Besides some of the biggest "lab rats" here are guys like Bruce Caslow,
Brian Dennis, Brad Ellis, Scott Morris, Narbik Kochans, Val Pavlichenko, Bob
and the list goes on.
I can assure you these guys can hold their own against many an "experienced"
network engineer.
And so can a vast number of their students - in fact many of the best
"experienced" network engineers were probably a student at some point anyway
or a person who has read one of their books, been to a class, or whatever...
All in all, I'd think a good lab rat can probably do the job most if not
every time.
And if a person is truly experienced, then that person knows he/she has to
keep skills up to date and will appreciate a good lab rat when one sees one.
Just my humble opinion...
But hey, I'm trying to study here...
Later
--- Tom Larus <tlarus@cox.net> wrote:
> If you, Du Jianbo, really believe that the CCIE can ever be considered
> a paper certification, then you:
>
> 1) do not know how hard the process of passing the CCIE Lab is (a lot
> of us underestimated the difficulty for the first few months of
> preparation) or
> 2) you think the CCIE is really not all that valuable, in which case
> it probably is not worth the effort or
> 3) you have heard of people who cheated to pass it, so it really was
> not as hard for them as it ought to have been or
> 4) you have CCIE and just don't want more competition, or
> 5) you have the misconception, shared by many, that the CCIE is
> Cisco's imprimatur or "seal of quality" bestowed on highly experienced
> network engineers. Some people think that is what the CCIE is or
> should be, but it is a test of your ability to master a large, but
> finite, body of material, and execute a series of tasks fraught with
> many issues that will be hidden from you if you do not understand the
> material well.
>
> Sometimes I actually forget how valuable what I learned from preparing
> for the CCIE Lab can be in the real world, and these "Lab Rat" threads
> get me down, but then something happens to remind me that I gained
> valuable knowledge and skills and understanding.
> Recently a friend of
> mine (who has employed me in the past for some lucrative consulting
> work) was talking to me about a problem a friend of his was having at
> his job site. The symptoms reminded me right away of one of the first
> things I learned when I was doing labs on a Cisco practice lab at NC
> State University. I said, "It sounds like the old collapsing tunnel
> problem," and explained what that meant. That was the clue that
> helped get the problem resolved. So it was something I learned in a
> lab, but it had real world value. It seemed obvious to me, but is not
> obvious to everyone, including a few people with a lot more paid
> experience than me.
>
> The point is that a Lab Rat should not be made Lead Engineer, but will
> still add considerable value to a team. By this I mean the kind of
> value that vastly exceeds what we normally associate with a "paper
> certification."
>
> Best regards,
> Tom Larus, CCIE #10,014
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Du, Jianbo wrote:
>
> >Totally agree! Without working experience, CCIE
> cert is a paper only.
> >
> >
> >Regards,
> >Jerry
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: nobody@groupstudy.com
> [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
> >Gobind
> >Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2007 4:08 AM
> >To: Faryar Zabihi (fzabihi); Seemore Tops;
> ccielab@groupstudy.com
> >Subject: RE: Lab rats make me mad
> >
> >I completely agree with Faryar,i.e. the Lab Rats
> really keep the value
> >of CCIE.
> >
> >Gobind
> >
> >
> >
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: fzabihi@cisco.com
> >>Sent: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 14:03:07 -0500
> >>To: topass_ccie12@hotmail.com,
> ccielab@groupstudy.com
> >>Subject: RE: Lab rats make me mad
> >>
> >>Lol...how about something better since these lab
> rats actually know
> >>
> >>
> >the
> >
> >
> >>stuff.
> >>How about the thousands of people who have a ccie
> but can't even
> >>
> >>
> >properly
> >
> >
> >>reverse telnet into a router or even spell dhcp.
> I say on ur 3rd
> >>recert...u
> >>take the lab again or something harder than the
> freakin written. I
> >>personnaly
> >>think the lab rats keep the value of the ccie and
> don't allow it to be
> >>
> >>
> >a
> >
> >
> >>political cert.
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >>From: Seemore Tops
> [mailto:topass_ccie12@hotmail.com]
> >>Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 01:50 PM Eastern
> Standard Time
> >>To: ccielab@groupstudy.com
> >>Subject: Lab rats make me mad
> >>
> >>I think Cisco needs to create a policy similar to
> the CISSP for work
> >>experience for CCIE certification. I think this
> would stop the lab
> >>
> >>
> >rats
> >
> >
> >>from getting into the system.
> >>
>
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> >
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