From: Jake (jakeczyz@yahoo.com)
Date: Sat Dec 06 2003 - 15:46:55 GMT-3
Everyone,
I totally agree with Tom. [Hi Tom! How are you?] Although I've only been in IT for
about 5 years, I see a strong trend downward. This year, according to industry research
groups, 10% of US IT spending went overseas and it is expected to grow by 50% next year.
While I agree with Chuck that CCIE level jobs are a somewhat unique niche that arguably
requires more presence here than other jobs (e.g. programming), one mustn't forget one
important point. In IT, we are all in the same boat. If programmers or "lower" level
systems people lose their jobs in the US, they won't just disappear or take up careers in
lawn care. Instead, they will retrain, "adjust" their resumes, or simply start applying
themselves to the niches that are still here. By the basic principle of supply and
demand, there will be less positions than there will be people willing to work in them
and either qualified to do so or getting there fast. In other words, when one part of IT
suffers, I would argue that we all suffer. Not to mention that if you think about it,
when a significant portion of workers (programmers, and increasingly call-center CSR's)
is moved overseas, a company will not need as many PC's, access switches..., routers, and
yes, systems support people here. I am seeing this happening in the fortune 50 company I
work at. Perhaps in smaller businesses the trend isn't as alarming. But like I said, loss
in one area is troubling to everyone because if someone loses their job at a big firm
they will settle for less pay at a small firm. Supply and demand tells us that
consequently those people's pay will suffer.
At my large company I'm the only CCIE (and I was able to pass on the first sit, for
those of you that consider this to mean something), yet, because of company politics and
the global economy, I've been put on the lowest level network team and my pay doesn't
justify the $25K and considerable effort it took me to pass the ie. Let's just say union
waste haulers and electricians in Illinois make more than I do (no joke). My teammate is
a guy who has a Bachelor's in comp engineering from Purdue and is graduating with an MBA
(not from a big name school) this month. Both of us have been in IT for about 5 years and
both of us are getting out. The money to get the ie may be about half of what it takes to
get an MBA, but the effort perhaps is comparable. In the 20 months since I passed, the
job market has been terrible, but even with the economy turning around, I don't see many
employers willing to jump up with figures even %80 what they did 3 years ago for CCIE's.
"Cisco Academies" and thousands of private schools have churned out CCNPs and MCSEs by
the boatload. In some high schools in Illinois (and this is true for some major cities in
other countries like India for example as well) kids are graduating from high school with
these certifications even though they never plan to use them or if they do are willing to
use them for $10 an hour. This is fantastic for vendors like Cisco and Microsoft, but if
I was staying in this field I'd be nervous as heck.
I know many on this list will admonish me for saying this, but unless you already have 5+
years of heavy duty networking (especially security, wireless, some voip, etc.)
experience [or, unlike me, you're willing to lie on your resume like many people do], the
CCIE is not worth going for at this time. Use that money to finish your bachelors or go
to grad school. You'll expand yourself in a breadth of knowledge rather than putting all
your eggs in this one basket. I didn't think this way two and a half years ago when I
started learning networking and preparing for my exam, but things have changed in the
marketplace.
Moreover, even in the last few years, average graduates from the top 10 MBA schools have
been getting jobs starting around $90-100K (see US News and World Report Ranking guides).
However, if you're unable to get into the top ones, I'm not sure how good the outlook is
there. Looking at my company, at least, there seems to be a huge need for **competent**
technical managers, but just because there's a need doesn't mean companies are wise
enough to fill it, rather than just promoting people that have been around long enough.
I know many reading this are very emotionally and financially vested in this endeavor,
and I hope that I'm wrong and things will turn around. Some of you are friends of mine
and CCIE instructors that I respect very much. So, again, I hope I'm wrong. But for all
the voices that are promoting the IE, there needs to be some trying to balance the
rhetoric toward the current realities of the market.
Just my 2.5 cents. Personally, for now, I'm going back to college!
Good luck to all,
Jake "Gloom and Doom" CCIE #9102
--- Thomas Larus <tlarus@cox.net> wrote:
> It really depends on the MBA. All MBAs are not equal. In fact they vary so
> widely as to be entirely different things.
>
> An MBA from some local University without a big-time reputation or
> extraordinary demands made on the students is a very different thing from an
> MBA from Harvard, Wharton or the like. Both kinds of MBAs can be valuable,
> but for different kinds of career tracks.
>
> Your idea sounds pretty good, given the outsourcing problems. But you had
> better make sure that you would like doing what managers do. Do you like
> things like Microsoft Project, where the work of highly skilled and talented
> technical employees is estimated and described as if it were an ingredient
> in a cake recipe? Or making spreadsheets and knowing how to set certain
> values so you get the results you want.
>
> On the other hand, you can be the person whose time is put in the project as
> if it were an ingredient in a recipe, and for which a cheaper ingredient can
> be easily substituted. Your idea sounds better the more one considers it.
>
> Tom Larus, CCIE #10,014
> Author of CCIE Warm-Up: Advice and Learning Labs
> http://www.ipexpert.com/products_services/product.asp?sku=ip7777
> tlarus@ipexpert.com
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Cisco Babe" <ciscobabee@yahoo.com>
> To: <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
> Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2003 9:26 AM
> Subject: MBA or CCIE Lab ??
>
>
> > Hi everyone!
> >
> > Looking to start MBA and possibly delaying the CCIE
> > lab for the MBA. Main Reason is the outsourcing of
> > tech jobs. My company has started outsourcing, same
> > with many of my friends across the nation. Started to
> > look at other options for a 5 year plan and the MBA
> > seems to give additional options if I am out on the
> > street looking for a job in 5 years.
> >
> > Like to get everyones feedback and view on the MBA
> > vs. the Lab.
> >
> > Thanks!
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