From: Tom Larus (tlarus@cox.net)
Date: Tue Mar 25 2003 - 20:13:59 GMT-3
Your point about specialization is right on target. No one can know
everything about everything, and the ticket is to keep learning and build
specializations.
I can personally vouch for the fact that the CCIE (R&S) does not help you
much with Call Manager or Unity, as I find these very difficult. (It does
help you a lot with the QOS part of IP telephony, though, if you focused
hard on QOS in your studies, as I did.) Nor does the CCIE (R&S) guaranty
that you know all about Cisco's product line. After passing the CCIE (R&S)
I studied A LOT to pass Cisco's Routing and Switching Specialization exam,
which requires that you know an enormous amount of product information.
That someone might, during a casual meeting, think out loud about the
possibility that 6500 10/100 blade might go into a 7507 is not so
unforgivable, since you can in fact put some port adapters used on 7507s
into a Catalyst 6500 switch with a FlexWan adapter. Now if he or she
recommended the purchase of such a blade and is jammed it repeatedly into a
7507, and cursing because it won't go, that would be a bit more obviously
ridiculous.
I don't think the experienced non-CCIEs want us to all start telling the
stories about who tried to put what blade into what wrong slot or wrong
chassis. Trust me, it happens to the best and most experienced.
As a CCIE with less experience than the average CCIE, I am extremely
conscious of having gaps in my knowledge, so I tend to be reticent to speak
up and say that someone with more experience is wrong or is taking the wrong
approach to a problem. It is a big problem when you think you have the
answer, but are not yet experienced enough to know that you have the answer.
This is a big reason why I am not, as a practical matter, worth as much as I
would be worth if I also had lots of experience.
On the other hand, a lot of very experienced people will state the wrong
answer or execute the wrong solution with complete confidence.
A major worry for me as a CCIE with less-than-average experience is that I
will someday make some mistake and forever get branded as the CCIE who
didn't know squat. These stories spread and mutate in this field, even when
someone is not a CCIE.
Best regards,
Tom
----- Original Message -----
From: "iron_tri" <iron_tri@msn.com>
To: "Lasserre, Gregory (Gregory)" <lasserre@lucent.com>;
<ccielab@groupstudy.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2003 3:18 PM
Subject: Re: The number of CCIEs grows faster today
> I've tried to avoid writing on this topic, but I am going to give my
> opinion. I am not yet a CCIE, but the new numbers aren't going to
> discourage my attempt(s). The CCIE Routing and Switching Certificiation
> will probably continue to produce diminishing returns from a resume or
> salary perspective. Why? Routing and Switching isn't the complex beast
it
> was 10 years ago when the CCIE certification first arrived on the IT
scene.
> Routing and Switching is still complex, just ask a TAC engineer. But, for
> most Network Engineers, you tend to have a specialty unless you are a
> company's "Jack-of-All-Trades" which I applaud as one of the toughest jobs
> in the industry. Being able to keep up with the network, apps, and end
> users is the toughest thing I have seen done in the industry. The
> technologies are also more accessible, training resources are unlimited,
and
> industry expertise is growing at an unprecedented rate. But, are those
bad
> things? Not in my opinion because those are some of the driving factors
> behind NEW technologies that bring higher salaries such as IP Telephony
(New
> Voice CCIE) and Security. If you simply rely on the title to get you in
the
> door, forget about it. It is experience and the certification combined
that
> can help you get the job. CCIE will always carry some weight, but if I
were
> going to hire someone, I would have to look at experience. For example, I
> could work for a company that installs CallManager on a regular basis. We
> could constantly have resumes cross the desk of folks that are CCIEs, and
we
> don't hire them. Why? Just because you have a number doesn't mean you
know
> how to deal with real customer scenarios or issues in the field when it
> comes to QOS, CallManager, and Unity, and if you don't have solid
experience
> with QOS or CallManager, why would my company hire you? Because you can
put
> a really strange scenario together quickly in a lab? Does a CCIE title
> qualify you for a job installing Cisco CallManager for 1500 users in a
> production environment? No, it might put you on a team; but you probably
> won't get the job if another candidate can supply solid references to a
> similar project, which would include QOS design and implementation.
>
> We have also been unfortunate enough to have had bad experiences even
with
> CCIEs in the past. I can remember one clear example of a consultant with
a
> number in the 7000 range. He tried to put a 6500 series 10/100 blade in a
> 7507. He also told me that the 7507 required dual RSPs to run. Does that
> make some sense? NetGun anyone? I asked myself, how did this guy get a
> number? Well, they don't make you put a 7500 together in the lab. We all
> have to face the fact that someone may be more qualified for a job than a
> CCIE because they have more of the right kind of experience for the job
> being offered on the market.
>
> So, what's my point after rambling? SPECIALIZATION is going to be your
> ticket to a higher salary. If you can't see past your nose long enough to
> realize that your hard work has already paid off for you, you do have a
> number, then figure it out. Hammer on QOS, and sell your lab or part of
it
> for a couple of servers that will run CallManager and Unity and get on it.
> Or, go after Security certification, not necessarily Cisco's as CISSP
> carries the weight in that arena. You don't even have to get the Voice
CCIE,
> just get certified on CallManager/Unity and get some hands on. Work with
> your local Cisco office and let them know of your goals and objectives;
and
> don't be afraid to ask for their assistance. You will find that they can
be
> very helpful to you.
>
> It is always discouraging to hear someone talk about how their efforts
have
> been in vain because CCIE won't get them a job. It is tough right now,
but
> it will get better for all of us. Remember this, if you are going to get
> six figures, you are going to really have to bring something to the table
in
> this economy. CCIE R&S probably won't be enough to get that six figure
job,
> so take a bigger picture look and hammer it out for yourself.
>
> Good luck in the tough market, and keep your heads up out there. It will
> get better with time. It seems better to me than it was last year at this
> time when lots of people were losing their jobs by the thousand, but maybe
> that's just me. Sorry to offend if this post strikes an angry cord with
> you, that's not its purpose.
>
> Irontri
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lasserre, Gregory (Gregory)" <lasserre@lucent.com>
> To: <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2003 9:06 AM
> Subject: RE: The number of CCIEs grows faster today
>
>
> > As for me it seems clear that the CCIE certification
> > has lost value...
> >
> > It's really a shame thinking of all the sacrifices
> > we made to get it.
> >
> > Gregory.
> >
> > ---
> >
> > LUCENT Technologies O
> > LWS - Professional Services
> >
> > Gregory LASSERRE
> > Senior Network Consultant
> >
> > # CCIE 5882
> > e-mail : lasserre@lucent.com
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Message d'origine-----
> > De : MADMAN [mailto:dmadlan@qwest.com]
> > Envoye : mardi 25 mars 2003 15:32
> > A : Phong Tran Tien
> > Cc : ccielab@groupstudy.com
> > Objet : Re: The number of CCIEs grows faster today
> >
> >
> > The program actually started in 93, next to me is CCIE 1040, I took
> > mine 2 1/2 years after so I would say it is growing more quickly;)
> >
> > Dave
> >
> > Phong Tran Tien wrote:
> > > Hi group,
> > >
> > > I see the truth that the number of CCIEs grows faster today than
before.
> I
> > took and passed the lab on 19 March, got the number #11285 and I notice
> that
> > Mr Ozan Ocal, CCIE #11318, got his number on 22 March. It means that we
> have
> > about 33 new CCIEs (11318-11285) in only 3 days (19 to 22 March).
Someone
> > told me that the number of new CCIEs is 400 each month this year, is it
> > true? If it is true, in this year we will have about new 4,800 CCIEs.
> > >
> > > The CCIE program started in 1994 and up to this time, it's about 10
> years
> > long, and the total number of CCIEs in the world is now about 10,300
(the
> > first CCIE got number 1025). It means that on average the number of
CCIEs
> > grows 1,030 each year (10,300/10). But compare with the number above,
> 4,800
> > this year, how do you think? Does this mean that, when the number of
CCIEs
> > increases faster, CCIE certification is easier to get and the value of
the
> > certification decreases?
> > >
> > > Tran Tien Phong
> > > CCIE #11285
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > David Madland
> > CCIE# 2016
> > Sr. Network Engineer
> > Qwest Communications
> > 612-664-3367
> >
> > I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one
> > behind me."
> > --- General George S. Patton
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