From: Curtis Phillips (cphillips@xxxxxxxxxxxx)
Date: Sat Jun 01 2002 - 15:20:34 GMT-3
All,
I do hope we can stop this bickering.
Everyone seems so angry.
I would just like to see the list be the best it can be.
While I do agree Howards's experience is valuable, perhaps this list isn't
the best place for it's expression.
And whether they are justified or not certain exceptions have been made in
allowing for his presence.
Why not create a generic routing and switching list?
Or have I misunderstood in thinking the purpose of this list to be for
mutual support for CCIE candidates trying to pass the test?
The commercial implications are another story. I feel indebted to Paul for
the list and trust his judgement in
regards to how he handles it. I just think that sometimes
making exceptions can open a can of worms.
Curtis
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Rosenthal" <perosenthal@hotmail.com>
To: "Craig Columbus" <Craig.Columbus@columbusconsulting.com>;
<ccielab@groupstudy.com>
Cc: <hcb@gettcomm.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 12:48 PM
Subject: Re: CCIE #9240
> I've been a lurker for a LONG time. I have no problem at all with Howard
> making money or even promoting his stuff on this list. However, there are
> two issues.
>
> 1) Howard is not even a CCIE and therefore is no one to tell me or anyone
> else how to prepare. If he hasn't taken it he doesn't know what is
> required. If he does know what is required that means one of his
co-workers
> at Certification Zone told him very detailed info about the test. That
> would be my guess but I wouldn't know for sure. Even so, if he hasn't
> passed the lab he shouldn't be writing material. Would you go to med
school
> and let someone that isn't a doctor try and teach you surgery? I sure as
> hell wouldn't.
>
> 2) A new list has been created for vendors. Why is Howard not being
> restricted to posting his spam on that list? Well it's because of $$$. I
> used to think this list was intended to be vendor independent and fair for
> everyone. But, now I found out that they selectively filter posts from
> people that advocate their competitors. I don't like favoritism on lists
> such as this especially when people are buying that favoritism. If you
> don't think Groupstudy is getting paid by ipexpert, hello cumputers,
> getlabs, and certification zone then you should ask them. I'd be curious
> if they lie about it or are misleading in any way. If Howard wants to
post
> this stuff on the vendor lab and they stop filtering their competitors I
> wouldn't complain a bit. I think this is a good place for people to
> advertise their products or services. But, you shouldn't have to pay GS
to
> do so.
>
> You should also realize that Howard was always in this for the money.
> Before his new company he still worked for CZ which sells low to mid level
> training materials. He profited then as he does now.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Craig Columbus" <Craig.Columbus@columbusconsulting.com>
> To: <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
> Cc: <hcb@gettcomm.com>; <perosenthal@hotmail.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 12:23 PM
> Subject: Re: CCIE #9240
>
>
> > Peter,
> >
> > How long have you been subscribing to this list? Howard was a
meaningful
> > contributor long before his online rack venture.
> > But, playing devil's advocate, let's say that you're right. Let's say
> that
> > Howard only contributes to draw people to his for-profit ventures.
> > What's wrong with that? He contributes a VAST amount of information for
> > free everyday. If it leads to people buying his books or renting time
on
> > his racks, more power to him. I don't know if you're in the USA or
> another
> > country, but capitalism is what makes the USA great. If it weren't for
> > capitalism, there'd be no Cisco. They didn't start the company for a
love
> > of networking. Cisco, and every other for-profit venture, was started
> > because the founders had enough knowledge to build a product that they
> > thought people would want to buy. They were in it for the MONEY.
> > So, even if Howard's contributions to the list were purely motivated by
> > profit, it still wouldn't change the fact that he contributes to the
> > knowledge of thousands of list members each and every day. If he makes
a
> > billion dollars for doing so, I'll be the first to congratulate him on
his
> > success.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Craig
> >
> > At 12:11 PM 5/1/2002 -0400, you wrote:
> >
> > >His contributions are purely for monetary purposes. I know that most
> people
> > >on this list clearly see that. It's all business not out of the
kindness
> of
> > >his heart. He contributes hoping you'll be so impressed that you'll
buy
> > >labs from his partners and rent rack time from his company. Surely
> you're
> > >not this clueless and I know most people on this list are not fooled.
> > >
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: "Craig Columbus" <Craig.Columbus@columbusconsulting.com>
> > >To: <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
> > >Cc: <hcb@gettcomm.com>; <perosenthal@hotmail.com>
> > >Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 11:43 AM
> > >Subject: Re: CCIE #9240
> > >
> > >
> > > > I can't tell if I'm reading poor sarcasm or pitiful ignorance.
> > > > I surely hope it's an attempt at sarcasm....
> > > >
> > > > Howard contributes more meaningful commentary to this list per day
> than
> > > > most could contribute in a year. I, for one, appreciate that he
takes
> the
> > > > time out of his schedule to participate. I'm sure most others feel
> the
> > > > same way.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks Howard.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > At 11:13 AM 5/1/2002 -0400, you wrote:
> > > > >Howard just likes to impress people with all of his supposed
> "contacts"
> > >and
> > > > >his smoke screen of knowledge. The guy is obviously a bookworm and
> has
> > > > >never worked on a real network. He always talks about things he
has
> > > > >"written" and not work he's actually done. Now I'm sure Howard
will
> > >respond
> > > > >with his classic list of places he's consulted for. But, most of
us
> know
> > > > >he's full of shit. Apparently Howard feels that his name carries
> some
> > > > >weight like Doyle (excuse me while I die laughing). Hopefully most
> of us
> > > > >see him for what he is. He uses this list as spam and gets away
with
> it
> > > > >cause Paul is being paid advertising $$$ from a few vendors that
> Howard
> > >is
> > > > >affiliated with. His book is definitely worthless and thankfully
I
> > >looked
> > > > >through it before buying it. Another bookworm that frequents this
> list
> > >has
> > > > >a crap design book out too. I used it to help get the fire going
in
> my
> > > > >fireplace. The funniest part is she reviewed his book on Amazon!
I
> > >wonder
> > > > >how many of Howard's other buddies and co-workers helped promote
this
> > >crap.
> > > > >
> > > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > > >From: "Ludwig A. Morales" <morales_l@hotmail.com>
> > > > >To: "Howard C. Berkowitz" <hcb@gettcomm.com>
> > > > >Cc: <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
> > > > >Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 7:59 AM
> > > > >Subject: Re: CCIE #9240
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > listen, unlike the rest of the people here I couldn't care less
> that
> > >you
> > > > > > find my comment useful or not, trashing people is usually a way
to
> > >make
> > > > >you
> > > > > > feel better about yourself. I read your Designing Routing and
> > >switching
> > > > > > architecture a few days ago, didn't find it that useful, and you
> > >didn't
> > > > >see
> > > > > > me here trashing your book right? because that was just my
point
> of
> > >view.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > My good old daddy use to say:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There's not much greatness in holding honors, greatness comes
from
> > > > >deserving
> > > > > > them"
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And those with CCIE (either hi or low numbers deserve to be
CCIE,
> > >maybe
> > > > > > except for those that found their number in a corn flake box,
> anyone?)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sure JEFF (so you now him!!, great can you get me an autograph
> :P )
> > >was
> > > > >not
> > > > > > the first one to write about the Lollipop-Shape Sequence number
> space,
> > >now
> > > > > > when someone ask me from who did I learn about that, his getting
> the
> > > > >credit
> > > > > > because that's the book I've read, my comment was simply to
> > >demonstrate
> > > > >that
> > > > > > many "experience" networkers don't event open a book, "heckk
what
> do
> > > > >need
> > > > > > a book for or a cert as well I've been troubleshooting for X
year"
> > >(yeahh
> > > > > > stupid but maybe you've been doing it the wrong way).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > A Final comment, I would relay more on a rookie doctor that just
> > >graduated
> > > > > > from medical school that from someone that just have
"experience"
> in a
> > > > > > surgery room and haven't been properly trained.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > PS. Once again experience has great weight (of course I put my 6
> years
> > >in
> > > > >my
> > > > > > resume, though I've only been working with Cisco for 2 years, do
> my 6
> > > > >years
> > > > > > of experience means more to someone than Munib 2 Years with a
> CCIE, I
> > > > >don't
> > > > > > think so) I just see it wrong to take credit from the guys that
> > >recently
> > > > > > pass the exam, what do you feel threaten!!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: "Howard C. Berkowitz" <hcb@gettcomm.com>
> > > > > > To: <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 2:21 AM
> > > > > > Subject: Re: CCIE #9240
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > At 9:14 PM -0400 4/30/02, Ludwig Morales wrote:
> > > > > > > >Cool dude, this is the logest tread i've seem im this mailing
> > >list's
> > > > > > history
> > > > > > > >without using "NDA" .
> > > > > > > >I was thinking to let it slide myself but naaaa.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >First of all the fact that he took less time than you could
> provee
> > >that
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > >exam is easier now or that he's more discipline and more
> inteligent
> > > > >than
> > > > > > > >you, that depends on your perspective and the choise that
less
> > >ofends
> > > > > > you.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >Now to the CCIE Vs. experince stuff, i may be wrong but i
> think
> > >you
> > > > >are
> > > > > > > >comparing apples and oranges, i think i told this story
before
> but
> > >well
> > > > > > what
> > > > > > > >the heck..
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Be careful about comparing anything to apples or you may
> irritate
> > > > > > > Priscilla. :-)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >in the first CCIE bootcamp i took our instructor conducted an
> small
> > > > > > survey
> > > > > > > >to measure the level of all atendees by making a list of the
> > > > >tecnologies
> > > > > > he
> > > > > > > >was about to explain by drawing two columns on a sheet, one
was
> > >your
> > > > > > > >teorical experience and one was your practical experience
> regardig
> > >each
> > > > > > > >technology, one of the atendees sheets came to he's atention
> when
> > >he
> > > > >saw
> > > > > > > >that unlike all the rest of us this dude had more practical
> > >experience
> > > > > > than
> > > > > > > >theory, when he asked how come his answer was that he was
able
> to
> > > > > > configure
> > > > > > > >and troubleshoot up to a point but for him sometimes the
router
> was
> > > > >like
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > >black box of a plane, he didn't know what the hell was inside
> of
> > >it.
> > > > > > when
> > > > > > > >the TAC told him to change some parameter he simply did it
and
> did
> > >not
> > > > > > > >understand what was the purpose (this dude has been working
> with
> > >Cisco
> > > > > > for 4
> > > > > > > >years) so you see, CUIE does give you something, the
knowledge
> of
> > >how
> > > > > > each
> > > > > > > >thing works, I dare anyone with more the 5 years of
experience
> but
> > >with
> > > > > > > >never laying a hand on Doyle's to explain to me how igrp
> calculate
> > >it's
> > > > > > > >metric (remember the k values?) or the Lollipop-Shape
Sequence
> > >number
> > > > > > space.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > :-) But how did JEFF learn it? (Actually, I asked him, and he
> got
> > > > > > > some informationr released, by Dino Farinacci IIRC). The
> lollipop
> > > > > > > sequence came from Radia Perlman (I was the reviewer of Jeff's
> OSPF
> > > > > > > chapter), and I believe she and/or the standard is credited.
> The
> > > > > > > best writeup of the lollipop is in her Interconnections
book --
> > > > > > > better, I think, than John Moy's.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >Well anyway for those of you in the track dont let a coment
> like
> > >this
> > > > > > > >disapoint you, he's not right, he's not wrong that's just his
> point
> > >of
> > > > > > view
> > > > > > > >and you should not be worried about it (unless Robert is your
> boss,
> > > > > > jejejje)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >good luck to us, work hard and congratulate those who have
> achive
> > >their
> > > > > > goal
> > > > > > > >that helps us all aswell.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >OH and one last question, do you wake up in the morning and
> have
> > >all
> > > > >the
> > > > > > > >kwoledge to pass a CCIE exam? No? Then how do you get this
> > >kwoledge?
> > > > > > > >Uhhhhh trough experience?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Take a look at a picture of Scott Bradner sometime; he has a
> slight
> > > > > > > resemblance to Santa Claus. Vint Cerf is no spring chicken.
They
> > > > > > > still study.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >PS, been working in IT for 6 years now (thank God i'll be a
> CCIE
> > >that
> > > > > > have
> > > > > > > >been pushing and pulling routers for 6 years)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > let's see...I first started programming in 1966 or 7 (it
blurs)
> and
> > > > > > > actually put together my 1st network in 1970. Hmmm...this
week,
> I've
> > > > > > > learned some things about the application of control theory to
> > > > > > > routing protocols, about measurement timing issues in OSPF
> > > > > > > performance measurement, in some legal requirements for crypto
> in
> > > > > > > medical networks, and have been Perl programming since last
> week!
> > > > > > >
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