From: thomas larus (tlarus@xxxxxxx)
Date: Wed May 01 2002 - 15:56:53 GMT-3
I finally figured it out. You are just trolling for flames.
First, you attacked folks who learn enough to pass the CCIE lab without having
what you consider to be enough industry experience. Now you attack someone who
has many years of useful experience, and knows how to write books that reputab
le publishers are willing to publish.
Then you attack the man who is nice enough to provide this forum.
Are you just lashing out indiscriminately to get the rest of us to respond to y
ou? If so, then you have achieved your goal, and can consider yourself a succe
ss.
Even so, I have enjoyed the responses to your trolls. It has been encouraging
to learn that many people here respect folks who through dedication and hard wo
rk (with or without many years of paid industry experience) have passed the CCI
E.
Tom Larus
>>> "Peter Rosenthal" <perosenthal@hotmail.com> 05/01/02 13:31 PM >>>
I've been a lurker for a LONG time. I have no problem at all with Howard
making money or even promoting his stuff on this list. However, there are
two issues.
1) Howard is not even a CCIE and therefore is no one to tell me or anyone
else how to prepare. If he hasn't taken it he doesn't know what is
required. If he does know what is required that means one of his co-workers
at Certification Zone told him very detailed info about the test. That
would be my guess but I wouldn't know for sure. Even so, if he hasn't
passed the lab he shouldn't be writing material. Would you go to med school
and let someone that isn't a doctor try and teach you surgery? I sure as
hell wouldn't.
2) A new list has been created for vendors. Why is Howard not being
restricted t posting his spam on that list? Well it's because of $$$. I
used to think this list was intended to be vendor independent and fair for
everyone. But, now I found out that they selectively filter posts from
people that advocate their competitors. I don't like favoritism on lists
such as this especially when people are buying that favoritism. If you
don't think Groupstudy is getting paid by ipexpert, hello cumputers,
getlabs, and certification zone then you should ask them. I'd be curious
if they lie about it or are misleading in any way. If Howard wants to post
this stuff on the vendor lab and they stop filtering their competitors I
wouldn't complain a bit. I think this is a good place for people to
advertise their products or services. But, you shouldn't have to pay GS to
do so.
You should also realize that Howard was always in this for the money.
Before his new company he still worked for CZ which sells low to mid level
training materials. He profited then as he does now.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Craig Columbus" <Craig.Columbus@columbusconsulting.com>
To: <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
Cc: <hcb@gettcomm.com>; <perosenthal@hotmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 12:23 PM
Subject: Re: CCIE #9240
> Peter,
>
> How long have you been subscribing to this list? Howard was a meaningful
> contributor long before his online rack venture.
> But, playing devil's advocate, let's say that you're right. Let's say
that
> Howard only contributes to draw people to his for-profit ventures.
> What's wrong with that? He contributes a VAST amount of information for
> free everyday. If it leads to people buying his books or renting time on
> his racks, more power to him. I don't know if you're in the USA or
another
> country, but capitalism is what makes the USA great. If it weren't for
> capitalism, there'd be no Cisco. They didn't start the company for a love
> of networking. Cisco, and every other for-profit venture, was started
> because the founders had nough knowledge to build a product that they
> thought people would want to buy. They were in it for the MONEY.
> So, even if Howard's contributions to the list were purely motivated by
> profit, it still wouldn't change the fact that he contributes to the
> knowledge of thousands of list members each and every day. If he makes a
> billion dollars for doing so, I'll be the first to congratulate him on his
> success.
>
> Regards,
> Craig
>
> At 12:11 PM 5/1/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>
> >His contributions are purely for monetary purposes. I know that most
people
> >on this list clearly see that. It's all business not out of the kindness
of
> >his heart. He contributes hoping you'll be so impressed that you'll buy
> >labs from his partners and rent rack time from his company. Surely
you're
> >not this clueless and I know most people on this list are not fooled.
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Craig Columbus" <Craig.Columbus@columbusconsulting.com>
> >To: <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
> >Cc: <hcb@gettcomm.com>; <perosenthal@hotmail.com>
> >Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 11:43 AM
> >Subject: Re: CCIE #9240
> >
> >
> > > I can't tell if I'm reading poor sarcasm or pitiful ignorance.
> > > I surely hope it's an attempt at sarcasm....
> > >
> > > Howard contributes more meaningful commentary to this list per day
than
> > > most could contribute in a year. I, for one, appreciate that he takes
the
> > > time out of his schedule to participate. I'm sure most others feel
the
> > > same way.
> > >
> > > Thanks Howard.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > At 11:13 AM 5/1/2002 -0400, you wrote:
> > > >Howard just likes to impress people with all of his supposed
"contacts"
> >and
> > > >his smoke screen of knowledge. The guy is obviously a bookworm and
has
> > > >never worked on a real network. He always talks about things he has
> > > >"written" and not work he's actually done. Now I'm sure Howard will
> >respond
> > > >with his classic list of places he's cosulted for. But, most of us
know
> > > >he's full of shit. Apparently Howard feels that his name carries
some
> > > >weight like Doyle (excuse me while I die laughing). Hopefully most
of us
> > > >see him for what he is. He uses this list as spam and gets away with
it
> > > >cause Paul is being paid advertising $$$ from a few vendors that
Howard
> >is
> > > >affiliated with. His book is definitely worthless and thankfully I
> >looked
> > > >through it before buying it. Another bookworm that frequents this
list
> >has
> > > >a crap design book out too. I used it to help get the fire going in
my
> > > >fireplace. The funniest part is she reviewed his book on Amazon! I
> >wonder
> > > >how many of Howard's other buddies and co-workers helped promote this
> >crap.
> > > >
> > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > >From: "Ludwig A. Morales" <morales_l@hotmail.com>
> > > >To: "Howard C. Berkowitz" <hcb@gettcomm.com>
> > > >Cc: <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
> > > >Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 7:59 AM
> > > >Subject: Re: CCIE #9240
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > listen, unlike the rest of the people here I couldn't care less
that
> >you
> > > > > find my comment useful or not, trashing people is usually a way to
> >make
> > > >you
> > > > > feel better about yourself. I read your Designing Routing and
> >switching
> > > > > architecture a few days ago, didn't find it that useful, and you
> >didn't
> > > >see
> > > > > me here trashing your book right? because that was just my point
of
> >view.
> > > > >
> > > > > My good old daddy use to say:
> > > > >
> > > > > There's not much greatness in holding honors, greatness comes from
> > > >deserving
> > > > > them"
> > > > >
> > > > > And those with CCIE (either hi or low numbers deserve to be CCIE,
> >maybe
> > > > > except for those that found their number in a corn flake box,
anyone?)
> > > > >
> > > > > Sure JEFF (so you now him!!, great can you get me an autograph
:P )
> >was
> > > >not
> > > > > te first one to write about the Lollipop-Shape Sequence number
space,
> >now
> > > > > when someone ask me from who did I learn about that, his getting
the
> > > >credit
> > > > > because that's the book I've read, my comment was simply to
> >demonstrate
> > > >that
> > > > > many "experience" networkers don't event open a book, "heckk what
do
> > > >need
> > > > > a book for or a cert as well I've been troubleshooting for X year"
> >(yeahh
> > > > > stupid but maybe you've been doing it the wrong way).
> > > > >
> > > > > A Final comment, I would relay more on a rookie doctor that just
> >graduated
> > > > > from medical school that from someone that just have "experience"
in a
> > > > > surgery room and haven't been properly trained.
> > > > >
> > > > > PS. Once again experience has great weight (of course I put my 6
years
> >in
> > > >my
> > > > > resume, though I've only been working with Cisco for 2 years, do
my 6
> > > >years
> > > > > of experience means more to someone than Munib 2 Years with a
CCIE, I
> > > >don't
> > > > > think so) I just see it wrong to take credit from the guys that
> >recently
> > > > > pass the exam, what do you feel threaten!!
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Howard C. Berkowitz" <hcb@gettcomm.com>
> > > > > To: <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 2:21 AM
> > > > > Subject: Re: CCIE #9240
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > At 9:14 PM -0400 4/30/02, Ludwig Morales wrote:
> > > > > > >Cool dude, this is the logest tread i've seem im this mailing
> >list's
> > > > > history
> > > > > > >without using "NDA" .
> > > > > > >I was thinking to let it slide myself but naaaa.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >First of all the fact that he took less time than you could
provee
> >that
> > > > > the
> > > > > > >exam is easier now or that he's more discipline and more
inteligent
> > > >than
> > > > > > >you, that depends on your perspective and the choise that less
> >ofeds
> > > > > you.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Now to the CCIE Vs. experince stuff, i may be wrong but i
think
> >you
> > > >are
> > > > > > >comparing apples and oranges, i think i told this story before
but
> >well
> > > > > what
> > > > > > >the heck..
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Be careful about comparing anything to apples or you may
irritate
> > > > > > Priscilla. :-)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >in the first CCIE bootcamp i took our instructor conducted an
small
> > > > > survey
> > > > > > >to measure the level of all atendees by making a list of the
> > > >tecnologies
> > > > > he
> > > > > > >was about to explain by drawing two columns on a sheet, one was
> >your
> > > > > > >teorical experience and one was your practical experience
regardig
> >each
> > > > > > >technology, one of the atendees sheets came to he's atention
when
> >he
> > > >saw
> > > > > > >that unlike all the rest of us this dude had more practical
> >experience
> > > > > than
> > > > > > >theory, when he asked how come his answer was that he was able
to
> > > > > configure
> > > > > > >and troubleshoot up to a point but for him sometimes the router
was
> > > >like
> > > > > the
> > > > > > >black box of a plane, he didn't know what the hell was inside
of
> >it.
> > > > > when
> > > > > > >the TAC told him to change some parameter he simply did it and
did
> >not
> > > > > > >understand what was the purpose (this dude has been working
with
> >Cisco
> > > > > for 4
> > > > > > >years) so you see, CUIE does give you something, the knowledge
of
> >how
> > > > > each
> > > > > > >thing works, I dare anyone with more the 5 years of experience
but
> >with
> > > > > > >never laying a hand on Doyle's to explain to me how igrp
calculate
> >it's
> > > > > > >metric (remember the k values?) or the Lollipop-Shape Sequence
> >number
> > > > > space.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > :-) But how did JEFF learn it? (Actually, I asked him, and he
got
> > > > > > some iformationr released, by Dino Farinacci IIRC). The
lollipop
> > > > > > sequence came from Radia Perlman (I was the reviewer of Jeff's
OSPF
> > > > > > chapter), and I believe she and/or the standard is credited.
The
> > > > > > best writeup of the lollipop is in her Interconnections book --
> > > > > > better, I think, than John Moy's.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Well anyway for those of you in the track dont let a coment
like
> >this
> > > > > > >disapoint you, he's not right, he's not wrong that's just his
point
> >of
> > > > > view
> > > > > > >and you should not be worried about it (unless Robert is your
boss,
> > > > > jejejje)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >good luck to us, work hard and congratulate those who have
achive
> >their
> > > > > goal
> > > > > > >that helps us all aswell.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >OH and one last question, do you wake up in the morning and
have
> >all
> > > >the
> > > > > > >kwoledge to pass a CCIE exam? No? Then how do you get this
> >kwoledge?
> > > > > > >Uhhhhh trough experience?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Take a look at a picture of Scott Bradner sometime; he has a
slight
> > > > > > resemblance to Santa Claus. Vint Cerf is no spring chicken. They
> > > > > > still study.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >PS, been working in IT for 6 years now (thank God i'll be a
CCIE
> >that
> > > > > have
> > > > > > >been pushing and pulling routers for 6 years)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > let's see...I first started programming in 1966 or 7 (it blurs)
and
> > > > > > actually put together my 1st network in 1970. Hmmm...this week,
I've
> > > > > > learned some things about the application of control theory to
> > > > > > routing protocols, about measurement timing issues in OSPF
> > > > > > performance measurement, in some legal requirements for crypto
in
> > > > > > medical networks, and have been Perl programming since last
week!
> > > > > >
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.4 : Thu Jun 13 2002 - 10:58:48 GMT-3