From: Antonio (twinturbos@xxxxxxxxxxxx)
Date: Tue Apr 30 2002 - 21:36:19 GMT-3
The Rosenthal Boy is not a CCIE and will never be one. That is why he is
crying. He is afraid a CCIE will take his job.... Don't worry Rosenthal Boy,
nobody will fly bye you in the food chain, they'll slap you away. Quick,
there is a penny, run for cover or the Rosenthal boy will knock you flat to
get the penny....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Rosenthal" <perosenthal@hotmail.com>
To: <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 7:59 PM
Subject: Re: CCIE #9240
> Gee that's a tough choice. Please. The question is would you choose a
guy
> with 3 or 4 years of Cisco experience over a lab rat with 18 months? I'll
> take the guy with 3-4 years as long as it was doing real networking over
the
> lab rat Jr CCIE any day. If I did hire the Jr. CCIE he would be doing IOS
> upgrades and stuff til he got some REAL experience. If he is that smart
he
> can work his way up quicker than others. Everyone should have to work
their
> way up. I'm tired of the attitude that people think they can jump right
to
> the top. It's sickening especially to those of us that did put our time
in.
>
> I'm sorry but the process of attaining the CCIE is NOT grueling at all if
> you have a few years of REAL experience. It takes a couple months of
> preparation and study and it does demonstrate SOME level of commitment and
> hard work. But given the resources available it's an average
> accomplishment. Should you still be proud of it? Of course. Should you
> think you are a God or even particularly special? Of course not. I
> certainly would not put it in the class of a Doctor or Lawyer as some of
> these CCIE's like to think of themselves. I've noticed only the 9000+
guys
> seem to be standing up for this cert so much. I completely understand as
> the egos are still high. Wait a few months. It will wear off and you'll
> realize it was not that special especially when 1000 people pass a couple
> months after you did.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Antonio" <twinturbos@sympatico.ca>
> To: "Peter Rosenthal" <perosenthal@hotmail.com>; "Mingzhou Nie"
> <mnie@yahoo.com>; "Sean Wu" <vpivci@yahoo.com>; "thomas larus"
> <tlarus@mwc.edu>; <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 6:03 PM
> Subject: Re: CCIE #9240
>
>
> > Well. If it's a decision to choose between a CCIE with 3 years
experience
> > and a non-CCIE with 3 years experience I will choose a CCIE. Everyone
> knows
> > the USA and Canada, of which I've worked in both. are BIG on certs. But
I
> > won't choose a CCIE because he/she is a CCIE but because the CCIE has
gone
> > through the gruelling process to pass the CCIE. And that in itself takes
> > smarts, patience and dedication; all of which are the quite admirable
> traits
> > I am looking for.
> >
> > Technical Manager; CNR
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Peter Rosenthal" <perosenthal@hotmail.com>
> > To: "Mingzhou Nie" <mnie@yahoo.com>; "Sean Wu" <vpivci@yahoo.com>;
"thomas
> > larus" <tlarus@mwc.edu>; <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 4:28 PM
> > Subject: Re: CCIE #9240
> >
> >
> > > So you're saying that QoS, Voice, etc is harder than Appletalk,
DecNet,
> > ATM
> > > LANE, and other topics that have been removed? Your argument is quite
> > > flawed. Newer CCIE's generally have more relavent "lab" knowledge
> because
> > > older technologies have since been replaced. But back in 96 or 97 you
> > > didn't hear about some secretary becoming a CCIE after only 18 months
of
> > > "experience." That's because back then there wasn't all the available
> > > training, books, bootcamps, NDA violations galore on lists like this,
> etc.
> > > Back then people had to rely on real EXPERIENCE. We can argue this
all
> > day.
> > > The fact remains that the average new CCIE has FAR less REAL
experience
> > than
> > > the older ones.
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Mingzhou Nie" <mnie@yahoo.com>
> > > To: "Sean Wu" <vpivci@yahoo.com>; "'Peter Rosenthal'"
> > > <perosenthal@hotmail.com>; "thomas larus" <tlarus@mwc.edu>;
> > > <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 4:20 PM
> > > Subject: RE: CCIE #9240
> > >
> > >
> > > > I don't agree, Sean. Do you know what had been tested in 1996/7.
> > > > There's no voice, not Qos, no new techs that has since been added. I
> > > > won't ever thing earlier CCIEs are better technically.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- Sean Wu <vpivci@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > > Peter, I agree with you in that experience is important to this
> > > > > field,
> > > > > and most network managers tend to think in the same way. But what
> > > > > about
> > > > > the quality of experience, in my mind, 2 years' experience with
> > > > > intensive cisco hands-on is much more valuable than 5 years' first
> > > > > level
> > > > > network support.
> > > > >
> > > > > Also it is natural to see devaluation of CCIE cert these days. The
> > > > > devaluation is not only about the certification, it is about the
> > > > > career.
> > > > > The career to be a network administrator, no matter how senior you
> > > > > are,
> > > > > isn't exicting at all. Following others' tail all my life will
drive
> > > > > me
> > > > > crazy. But what else can I do as a network administrator? Nothing.
> > > > >
> > > > > I respect those CCIEs with small numbers, because they can get it
> > > > > QUICK
> > > > > and without much help from bootcamps. Those smart people already
got
> > > > > most out of their certs, and moved on to other area before it
cools
> > > > > down
> > > > > completely.
> > > > >
> > > > > So what is next HOT field? Maybe "DNA Certified Bio-Tech Expert"?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Peter Rosenthal [mailto:perosenthal@hotmail.com]
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 2:10 PM
> > > > > To: thomas larus; ccielab@groupstudy.com
> > > > > Subject: Re: CCIE #9240
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I see your point, but you are greatly exagerrating what I am
saying.
> > > > > Sure
> > > > > he would be allowed in my data center. But, only under close
> > > > > supervision as
> > > > > an apprentice. He certainly would not have uncontrolled access
and
> > > > > that
> > > > > is
> > > > > what I meant. I would not require someone to spend years doing
> > > > > cabling.
> > > > > I
> > > > > do not even know what his prior experience is. It would make a
HUGE
> > > > > difference if he spent the last 10 years doing Unix and NT
> > > > > administration at
> > > > > a high level or any IT job for that matter. In that case then
sure
> > > > > he
> > > > > would
> > > > > be allowed to work on the network with a lot less supervision.
But,
> > > > > if
> > > > > he's
> > > > > a 22 yr old that just graduated college and decided to become a
CCIE
> > > > > a
> > > > > year
> > > > > later then he's still a lab rat that needs to put in his time.
Even
> > > > > Cisco
> > > > > recommends a minimum of 2 years experience prior to taking the
lab.
> > > > > Personally, I think someone should have at least 3-4 years of
Cisco
> > > > > experience. Clearly the number of people passing with less than 2
> > > > > years
> > > > > experience is growing by the day and I'm sure that trend will
> > > > > continue
> > > > > until
> > > > > it's something that high school kids start obtaining.
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "thomas larus" <tlarus@mwc.edu>
> > > > > To: <ccielab@groupstudy.com>; <perosenthal@hotmail.com>
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 12:07 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: CCIE #9240
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "However, I know that no "Junior CCIE" or lab rat with a few
months
> > > > > experience is even going to get a badge to get in my data center
let
> > > > > alone
> > > > > be responsible for one of my networks."
> > > > > <p>
> > > > > Of course you should not make someone who is just really, really
> good
> > > > > at
> > > > > learning this material the chief of your entire network, but you
> > > > > would
> > > > > not
> > > > > even give him a badge to get into your data center to apprentice
as
> a
> > > > > junior
> > > > > network engineer. That's just plain offensive. No I guess he
needs
> > > > > to
> > > > > pay
> > > > > his dues. He needs to avoid getting his CCIE until he has spent
the
> > > > > requisite 4 years doing physical wiring, changing out the backup
> > > > > tapes,
> > > > > ghosting PCs. Then, you will let him get his CCNA and work for
> > > > > another
> > > > > four years doing whatever you consider appropriate CCNA-level
work.
> > > > > Then,
> > > > > after eight years, you would permit him to start studying for the
> > > > > CCIE,
> > > > > I
> > > > > guess.
> > > > >
> > > > > I really admire the folks who learned their networking by many
> > > > > years
> > > > > of
> > > > > hard work in, say the military, doing everything from running
wire,
> > > > > programming, setting up radios to making the ATM network run
right.
> > > > > This,
> > > > > in my view, is an optimal way to build a networking career. Many
of
> > > > > these
> > > > > people were underpaid for many years, and it is beautiful to see
> them
> > > > > finally rewarded for all their hard-work.
> > > > > <p>
> > > > > But some of us did not come to it that way. Some of us had the
> > > > > misfortune
> > > > > of spending years in graduate school or in some other challenging
> > > > > field
> > > > > when
> > > > > we could have been racking up years of experience in computer
> > > > > networking.
> > > > > Perhaps such a career-changer might not be the equal of someone
> with
> > > > > 20
> > > > > years of experience, but he should not even be permitted into your
> > > > > data
> > > > > center, even though he has proven that he can learn VERY difficult
> > > > > material
> > > > > through intensive study and unpaid hands-on experience.
> > > > >
> > > > > I left a job in a dying internet data center dot com to
concentrate
> > > > > on
> > > > > my
> > > > > ccie studies, because I found that after a certain point in some
> > > > > "industry"
> > > > > jobs there are diminishing marginal returns in terms of what you
> > > > > learn
> > > > > after
> > > > > a certain point. If I had looked for another "industry" job at
that
> > > > > time, I
> > > > > would not have found anything that would have permitted me to
learn
> > > > > what
> > > > > I
> > > > > have learned in the last nine months or so.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Peter Rosenthal" <perosenthal@hotmail.com> 04/30/02 11:18 AM >>>
> > > > > Completely agree with Rob about the dog comment. Although unless
> the
> > > > > lab
> > > > > becomes a Sylvan test it will never become like the MCSE or any
> other
> > > > > written test. However, I know that no "Junior CCIE" or lab rat
with
> > > > > a
> > > > > few
> > > > > months experience is even going to get a badge to get in my data
> > > > > center
> > > > > let
> > > > > alone be responsible for one of my networks. Anyone that lets
> > > > > someone
> > > > > with
> > > > > 16 months experience run their network is simply asking for
trouble.
> > > > > No
> > > > > matter how smart a person is you can't possibly obtain the
necessary
> > > > > experience to run a complex multiprotocol network in that amount
of
> > > > > time.
> > > > >
> > > > > This is not the last we are going to here of this sort of thing.
> > > > > There
> > > > > will
> > > > > be plenty more stories of "janitor to CCIE" or "secretary to CCIE"
> > > > > (already
> > > > > saw this one and laughed quite a bit) in the span of a few months.
> > > > > Schools
> > > > > will crop up all over the place advertising get your CCIE in 6
> > > > > months.
> > > > > The
> > > > > CCIE program will once again adapt to the "demand" of people
wanting
> > > > > to
> > > > > take
> > > > > the test and make some other dramatic change to funnel us in and
out
> > > > > of
> > > > > the
> > > > > exam as quickly as possible while comprising its integrity. Don't
> be
> > > > > surprised if someday the exam is the point, select and click
either
> > > > > A,
> > > > > B, C,
> > > > > or D for the right answer. But hey that's fine. The CCIE will
> > > > > someday
> > > > > be
> > > > > replaced just as all the great certs before it. It was a fun ride
> > > > > while
> > > > > it
> > > > > lasted, but its almost over. Hope you guys enjoyed the ride!
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Robert Carter" <Robert.Carter2@telus.com>
> > > > > To: <ccielab@groupstud.com>
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 9:23 AM
> > > > > Subject: RE: CCIE #9240
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Oh boy. I'm gona get some hate mail for this but...
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > === message truncated ===
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > =====
> > > > - | |
> > > > :|||: :|||:
> > > > :|||||||: :|||||||:
> > > > .:|||||||||||:.:|||||||||||:.
> > > > C i s c o S y s t e m s
> > > > www.cisco.com/tac
> > > > Empowering the Internet Generation
> > > >
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.4 : Thu Jun 13 2002 - 10:58:24 GMT-3