Re: CCIE Service Providerv3 - General Question

Congratulations on providing free labs Brian. Just cause I don't POST it as you have done, does not mean I don't DO IT.

I guess that's the difference between us. You POST while I just DO!!!

Josh, I apologize. There will be no more of this moving forward.

Paul

Paul Negron
CCIE# 14856
negron.paul_at_gmail.com

On Oct 30, 2012, at 12:24 AM, Brian Dennis <bdennis_at_ine.com> wrote:

> Paul,
> If you're so concerned about people learning the technologies and not just
> passing the CCIE SP lab, then why don't you offer equipment for them to
> practice for the SP lab? Seems that people getting hands-on practice
> would be key if you're as concerned as you say you are. The only help you
> seem to be offering is for someone to buy another class from you. You
> saying it's the best solution when the history of Cisco CCNA and CCNP
> authorized "bootcamps" (combining 3 or 4 five day classes in a single
> bootcamp) has been horrible to say the very least. A surprising
> percentage of Cisco "authorized" certification bootcamps are riddled with
> instructors telling students to use "TestKing" or "Pass4Sure" as they know
> they can't teach what they need to teach in the limited timeframe. Also
> you talk about these new CCNA-SP and CCNP-SP classes that as someone
> pointed out isn't even listed on Narbik's or the website of the company
> you work (Skyline-ATS) as available. If you're going to offer solutions
> to people here them you should have them available.
>
> As far as offering equipment to help people prepare for the SP lab goes
> when our SP racks were booked out for 90 days I put more in. When people
> said they wanted VPLS I put the line cards in to support it. When people
> said they wanted dedicated racks for the bootcamps, I put more in. Now
> each student has their own dedicated rack. Same way for your bootcamps I
> would hope. I do all this as a service to our customers because a workbook
> doesn't have much value unless you can actually practice the material in
> it. Please tell me that you're providing this same level of service to
> your customers so they can properly prepare for the SP lab exam.
>
> --
> Brian Dennis, CCIEx5 #2210 (R&S/ISP-Dial/Security/SP/Voice)
> bdennis_at_ine.com
>
> INE, Inc.
> http://www.INE.com
>
>
>
> On 10/29/12 7:52 PM, "Paul Negron" <negron.paul_at_gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I never said they need to start back at the CCNA level. Careful.
>> (If you carefully search the thread, I never came close to saying that)
>> I'm going to assume your not TRYING to be a smart ass either. ;-)
>>
>> I agreed with Brian McGhan when he said that MOST CCIE's would not need
>> it.
>>
>> Learning something right the first time is how it should it should be
>> done. My point is to NOT assume we are NOT just trying to get people to
>> pass an exam to become a CCIE. ( I think we agreed on this)
>>
>> I have run into my fair share of CCIE-SP's that LEARNED IT RIGHT THE
>> FIRST TIME and STILL do not know how to APPLY it correctly.
>>
>> CCNA level does not = INFERIOR. It can actually mean
trying to learn
>> right the first time.
>>
>> Sometimes the Advanced Approach skips past some basic things that WE (You
>> and I) have experienced, but these newer CCIE's have not. That's why they
>> come to us. RIGHT?
>>
>> Paul
>>
>>
>> Paul Negron
>> CCIE# 14856
>> negron.paul_at_gmail.com
>>
>>
>>
>> On Oct 29, 2012, at 5:03 PM, Brian Dennis <bdennis_at_ine.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Paul,
>>> Okay I see what you're saying now. Someone who goes through a vendor's
>>> R&S CCIE training material that focuses on them becoming an "IOS command
>>> jockey" so they can pass the CCIE lab without truly learning the
>>> technologies NEEDS to start back at CCNA level for their next CCIE
>>> track.
>>> As you stated INE's philosophy is different in that someone won't need
>>> to
>>> start all over again and relearn say basic OSPF or basic BGP if they
>>> went
>>> through our R&S CCIE training. This is exactly why we have so much
>>> coverage of the technologies themselves in our products.
>>>
>>> Honestly I think it's hard for you to argue that learning something
>>> right
>>> the first time isn't the best option but I'm glad we finally cleared it
>>> up.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Brian Dennis, CCIEx5 #2210 (R&S/ISP-Dial/Security/SP/Voice)
>>> bdennis_at_ine.com
>>>
>>> INE, Inc.
>>> http://www.INE.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 10/29/12 6:04 PM, "Paul Negron" <negron.paul_at_gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I think what Kenneth is saying is what I was trying to allude to in my
>>>> earlier
>>>> point. If you walk into a Service Provider Environment saying you are a
>>>> CCIE-SP and you think its about weather you know OSPF or ISIS from R&S,
>>>> your
>>>> going to get laughed at and make every CCIE-SP look like a joke. It is
>>>> simply
>>>> a different perspective in that environment.
>>>>
>>>> The differences for IOS-XR in the real world are HUGE compared to the
>>>> CCIE-SP
>>>> routing and switching portion. The posted documentation has a lot of
>>>> things
>>>> that are not used practically.
>>>>
>>>> But if your perspective is simply looking at the CCIE test scenarios,
>>>> then
>>>> listen to what Brian says.
>>>>
>>>> In my CCIE bootcamp, I really try to help you out for the exam and the
>>>> 20
>>>> years I have spent in the Service Provider space. I don't want you
>>>> being
>>>> laughed at. ;-)
>>>> I enjoy explaining the reasoning behind the concepts. In other words?..
>>>> the
>>>> BASICS!!! I do not ASSUME you already know. In fact, I had a couple of
>>>> R&S
>>>> candadites in the last bootcamp that actually enjoyed that perspective
>>>> and I
>>>> would say they were quite sharp.(Sharper then most I have met)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That said, I still agree with Narbik. The INE perspective still offers
>>>> a
>>>> different view, which is useful when attempting a CCIE exam.
>>>>
>>>> Paul
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Paul Negron
>>>> CCIE# 14856
>>>> negron.paul_at_gmail.com
>>>> 303-725-8162
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Oct 29, 2012, at 3:14 PM, Brian McGahan <bmcgahan_at_ine.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>> Right, there are obviously differences between the two OSes, both in
>>>>>>> hardware and software, but for any true CCIE this should not be an
>>>>>>> issue.
>>>>>>> The point of the CCIE is to obtain the level of expert in network
>>>>>>> engineering. As an expert you should have a deep theoretical
>>>>>>> knowledge
>>>>>>> of why and how different networking technologies work. OSPF is
>>>>>>> OSPF,
>>>>>>> BGP is BGP, whether it's on IOS, IOS XR, NX-OS, JunOS, etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yeah, that's the kind of viewpoint that causes outages. When you
>>>>>> start
>>>> thinking like this, you tend to make some very, very bad assumptions.
>>>> Of
>>>> course, you might live you in a world >where vendors never change
>>>> options
>>>> or
>>>> defaults between platforms or even OS revisions on the same platform,
>>>> never
>>>> mind the consideration of interoperability.
>>>>>
>>>>> Right, there are obviously different caveats to the different
>>>> implementations, but at the core they are all functionally the same.
>>>> If
>>>> you
>>>> know OSPF, and you know OSPF on IOS, you're not reinventing the wheel
>>>> trying
>>>> to learn OSPF on IOS XR.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What I'm saying is that if you're a CCIE in R&S - an *expert* in
>>>>>>> Routing & Switching technologies - and you need to start back at
>>>>>>> CCNA
>>>>>>> level for the Service Provider track, then you have failed. You've
>>>>>>> failed yourself as you've missed the entire point of CCIE to begin
>>>>>>> with.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There's something about this I find to be fairly offensive, and quite
>>>>>> a bit
>>>> elitist. Do you honestly believe that achieving a CCIE means you never
>>>> have to
>>>> go back to basics? You never have to review? That you don't have that
>>>> much to
>>>> learn?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When you're dealing with an unfamiliar platform and a new OS, I think
>>>>>> it's
>>>> prudent to probably start with the basics. I'd expect a CCIE to be
>>>> able to
>>>> breeze through it, since it should simply be a matter of reconciling
>>>> the
>>>> differences with what you already know, but to say that you've failed
>>>> yourself
>>>> by making an attempt to cover all the bases? I think that's a bit too
>>>> cavalier.
>>>>>
>>>>> What I'm saying is that if you pass the CCIE R&S and you're not an
>>>>> expert in
>>>> OSPF then something went wrong. It's not meant to be offensive, but
>>>> the
>>>> whole
>>>> idea of CCIE to begin with is elitist. It doesn't mean you know
>>>> everything,
>>>> but it *should* mean that at the end of obtaining CCIE you're an expert
>>>> in a
>>>> specific subset of technologies per the blueprint. I would think that
>>>> for
>>>> most CCIEs the path to SP shouldn't then be back to CCNA. If you go
>>>> take
>>>> a
>>>> class in CCNA SP you're going to be following topics like this:
>>>>>
>>>>> - Describe the OSI and TCP/IP models and their associated protocols to
>>>> explain how data flows in a network
>>>>> - Describe the structure of IPv4 and IPv6 addresses
>>>>> - Describe bridging concepts and Layer 2 Ethernet frames
>>>>> - Describe classful versus classless routing
>>>>> - Describe ICMPv4 and ICMPv6
>>>>> - Describe Frame Relay
>>>>>
>>>>> In my opinion this is not the right learning path to go from CCIE R&S
>>>>> to
>>>> CCIE SP, and would be a huge waste of time for most people. They
>>>> would be
>>>> better off spending their time reading through the documentation of XR
>>>> to
>>>> find
>>>> the platform and feature differences, and then spend time reading the
>>>> theory
>>>> of topics they aren't already an expert in.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Brian McGahan, CCIE #8593 (R&S/SP/Security)
>>>>> bmcgahan_at_INE.com
>>>>>
>>>>> Internetwork Expert, Inc.
>>>>> http://www.INE.com
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nobody_at_groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody_at_groupstudy.com] On Behalf
>>>>> Of
>>>> Kenneth Ratliff
>>>>> Sent: Monday, October 29, 2012 3:19 PM
>>>>> To: ccielab_at_groupstudy.com
>>>>> Subject: Re: CCIE Service Providerv3 - General Question
>>>>>
>>>>> On 10/26/12 7:29 PM, "Brian McGahan" <bmcgahan_at_ine.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Right, there are obviously differences between the two OSes, both in
>>>>>> hardware and software, but for any true CCIE this should not be an
>>>>>> issue.
>>>>>> The point of the CCIE is to obtain the level of expert in network
>>>>>> engineering. As an expert you should have a deep theoretical
>>>>>> knowledge
>>>>>> of why and how different networking technologies work. OSPF is OSPF,
>>>>>> BGP is BGP, whether it's on IOS, IOS XR, NX-OS, JunOS, etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yeah, that's the kind of viewpoint that causes outages. When you start
>>>> thinking like this, you tend to make some very, very bad assumptions.
>>>> Of
>>>> course, you might live you in a world where vendors never change
>>>> options
>>>> or
>>>> defaults between platforms or even OS revisions on the same platform,
>>>> never
>>>> mind the consideration of interoperability.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What I'm saying is that if you're a CCIE in R&S - an *expert* in
>>>>>> Routing & Switching technologies - and you need to start back at CCNA
>>>>>> level for the Service Provider track, then you have failed. You've
>>>>>> failed yourself as you've missed the entire point of CCIE to begin
>>>>>> with.
>>>>>
>>>>> There's something about this I find to be fairly offensive, and quite
>>>>> a
>>>>> bit
>>>> elitist. Do you honestly believe that achieving a CCIE means you never
>>>> have to
>>>> go back to basics? You never have to review? That you don't have that
>>>> much to
>>>> learn?
>>>>>
>>>>> When you're dealing with an unfamiliar platform and a new OS, I think
>>>>> it's
>>>> prudent to probably start with the basics. I'd expect a CCIE to be
>>>> able to
>>>> breeze through it, since it should simply be a matter of reconciling
>>>> the
>>>> differences with what you already know, but to say that you've failed
>>>> yourself
>>>> by making an attempt to cover all the bases? I think that's a bit too
>>>> cavalier.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________________________________
>>>>> Subscription information may be found at:
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>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________________________________
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Received on Tue Oct 30 2012 - 05:37:29 ART