RE: CCIE Service Providerv3 - General Question

Nice ad.

-----Original Message-----
From: nobody_at_groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody_at_groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
Brian Dennis
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2012 2:25 AM
To: Paul Negron
Cc: Cisco certification
Subject: Re: CCIE Service Providerv3 - General Question

Paul,
If you're so concerned about people learning the technologies and not just
passing the CCIE SP lab, then why don't you offer equipment for them to
practice for the SP lab? Seems that people getting hands-on practice would
be key if you're as concerned as you say you are. The only help you seem to
be offering is for someone to buy another class from you. You saying it's
the best solution when the history of Cisco CCNA and CCNP authorized
"bootcamps" (combining 3 or 4 five day classes in a single
bootcamp) has been horrible to say the very least. A surprising percentage
of Cisco "authorized" certification bootcamps are riddled with instructors
telling students to use "TestKing" or "Pass4Sure" as they know they can't
teach what they need to teach in the limited timeframe. Also you talk about
these new CCNA-SP and CCNP-SP classes that as someone pointed out isn't even
listed on Narbik's or the website of the company you work (Skyline-ATS) as
available. If you're going to offer solutions to people here them you
should have them available.

As far as offering equipment to help people prepare for the SP lab goes when
our SP racks were booked out for 90 days I put more in. When people said
they wanted VPLS I put the line cards in to support it. When people said
they wanted dedicated racks for the bootcamps, I put more in. Now each
student has their own dedicated rack. Same way for your bootcamps I would
hope. I do all this as a service to our customers because a workbook doesn't
have much value unless you can actually practice the material in it. Please
tell me that you're providing this same level of service to your customers
so they can properly prepare for the SP lab exam.

--
Brian Dennis, CCIEx5 #2210 (R&S/ISP-Dial/Security/SP/Voice) bdennis_at_ine.com
INE, Inc.
http://www.INE.com
On 10/29/12 7:52 PM, "Paul Negron" <negron.paul_at_gmail.com> wrote:
>I never said they need to start back at the CCNA level. Careful.
>(If you carefully search the thread, I never came close to saying that) 
>I'm going to assume your not TRYING to be a smart ass either. ;-)
>
>I agreed with Brian McGhan when he said that MOST CCIE's would not need 
>it.
>
>Learning something right the first time is how it should it should be 
>done. My point is to NOT  assume we are NOT just trying to get people 
>to pass an exam to become a CCIE. ( I think we agreed on this)
>
>I have run into my fair share of CCIE-SP's that LEARNED IT RIGHT THE 
>FIRST TIME and STILL do not know how to APPLY it correctly.
>
>CCNA level does not = INFERIOR. It can actually mean
trying to learn
>right the first time.
>
>Sometimes the Advanced Approach skips past some basic things that WE 
>(You and I) have experienced, but these newer CCIE's have not. That's 
>why they come to us. RIGHT?
>
>Paul
>
>
>Paul Negron
>CCIE# 14856
>negron.paul_at_gmail.com
>
>
>
>On Oct 29, 2012, at 5:03 PM, Brian Dennis <bdennis_at_ine.com> wrote:
>
>> Paul,
>> Okay I see what you're saying now.  Someone who goes through a 
>>vendor's  R&S CCIE training material that focuses on them becoming an 
>>"IOS command  jockey" so they can pass the CCIE lab without truly 
>>learning the  technologies NEEDS to start back at CCNA level for their 
>>next CCIE track.
>> As you stated INE's philosophy is different in that someone won't 
>>need to  start all over again and relearn say basic OSPF or basic BGP 
>>if they went  through our R&S CCIE training.  This is exactly why we 
>>have so much  coverage of the technologies themselves in our products.
>> 
>> Honestly I think it's hard for you to argue that learning something 
>>right  the first time isn't the best option but I'm glad we finally 
>>cleared it up.
>> 
>> --
>> Brian Dennis, CCIEx5 #2210 (R&S/ISP-Dial/Security/SP/Voice) 
>> bdennis_at_ine.com
>> 
>> INE, Inc.
>> http://www.INE.com
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 10/29/12 6:04 PM, "Paul Negron" <negron.paul_at_gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> I think what Kenneth is saying is what I was trying to allude to in 
>>> my earlier point. If you walk into a Service Provider Environment 
>>> saying you are a CCIE-SP and you think its about weather you know 
>>> OSPF or ISIS from R&S, your going to get laughed at and make every 
>>> CCIE-SP look like a joke. It is simply a different perspective in 
>>> that environment.
>>> 
>>> The differences for IOS-XR in the real world are HUGE compared to 
>>> the CCIE-SP routing and switching portion. The posted documentation 
>>> has a lot of things that are not used practically.
>>> 
>>> But if your perspective is simply looking at the CCIE test 
>>>scenarios, then  listen to what Brian says.
>>> 
>>> In my CCIE bootcamp, I really try to help you out for the exam and 
>>>the
>>>20
>>> years I have spent in the Service Provider space. I don't want you 
>>>being  laughed at. ;-)  I enjoy explaining the reasoning behind the 
>>>concepts. In other words?..
>>> the
>>> BASICS!!! I do not ASSUME you already know. In fact, I had a couple 
>>>of R&S  candadites in the last bootcamp that actually enjoyed that 
>>>perspective  and  I  would say they were quite sharp.(Sharper then 
>>>most I have met)
>>> 
>>> 
>>> That said, I still agree with Narbik. The INE perspective still 
>>>offers a  different view, which is useful when attempting a CCIE 
>>>exam.
>>> 
>>> Paul
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Paul Negron
>>> CCIE# 14856
>>> negron.paul_at_gmail.com
>>> 303-725-8162
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Oct 29, 2012, at 3:14 PM, Brian McGahan <bmcgahan_at_ine.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>>>> Right, there are obviously differences between the two OSes, both 
>>>>>>in  hardware and software, but for any true CCIE this should not 
>>>>>>be an  issue.
>>>>>> The point of the CCIE is to obtain the level of expert in network  
>>>>>>engineering.  As an expert you should have a deep theoretical  
>>>>>>knowledge  of why and how different networking technologies work.  
>>>>>>OSPF is OSPF,  BGP is BGP, whether it's on IOS, IOS XR, NX-OS, 
>>>>>>JunOS, etc.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Yeah, that's the kind of viewpoint that causes outages. When you 
>>>>>start
>>> thinking like this, you tend to make some very, very bad assumptions.
>>>Of
>>> course, you might live you in a world >where vendors never change 
>>>options  or  defaults between platforms or even OS revisions on the 
>>>same platform,  never  mind the consideration of interoperability.
>>>> 
>>>> Right, there are obviously different caveats to the different
>>> implementations, but at the core they are all functionally the same.
>>>If
>>> you
>>> know OSPF, and you know OSPF on IOS, you're not reinventing the 
>>>wheel  trying  to learn OSPF on IOS XR.
>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> What I'm saying is that if you're a CCIE in R&S - an  *expert* in  
>>>>>>Routing & Switching technologies - and you need to start back at 
>>>>>>CCNA  level for the Service Provider track, then you have failed.  
>>>>>>You've  failed yourself as you've missed the entire point of CCIE 
>>>>>>to begin  with.
>>>>> 
>>>>> There's something about this I find to be fairly offensive, and 
>>>>> quite a bit
>>> elitist. Do you honestly believe that achieving a CCIE means you 
>>> never have to go back to basics? You never have to review? That you 
>>> don't have that much to learn?
>>>>> 
>>>>> When you're dealing with an unfamiliar platform and a new OS, I 
>>>>> think it's
>>> prudent to probably start with the basics. I'd expect a CCIE to be 
>>>able to  breeze through it, since it should simply be a matter of 
>>>reconciling the  differences with what you already know, but to say 
>>>that you've failed  yourself  by making an attempt to cover all the 
>>>bases? I think that's a bit too  cavalier.
>>>> 
>>>> What I'm saying is that if you pass the CCIE R&S and you're not an 
>>>> expert in
>>> OSPF then something went wrong.  It's not meant to be offensive, but 
>>>the  whole  idea of CCIE to begin with is elitist.  It doesn't mean 
>>>you know  everything,  but it *should* mean that at the end of 
>>>obtaining CCIE you're an expert  in a  specific subset of 
>>>technologies per the blueprint.  I would think that for  most CCIEs 
>>>the path to SP shouldn't then be back to CCNA.  If you go take  a  
>>>class in CCNA SP you're going to be following topics like this:
>>>> 
>>>> - Describe the OSI and TCP/IP models and their associated protocols 
>>>> to
>>> explain how data flows in a network
>>>> - Describe the structure of IPv4 and IPv6 addresses
>>>> - Describe bridging concepts and Layer 2 Ethernet frames
>>>> - Describe classful versus classless routing
>>>> - Describe ICMPv4 and ICMPv6
>>>> - Describe Frame Relay
>>>> 
>>>> In my opinion this is not the right learning path to go from CCIE 
>>>>R&S to
>>> CCIE SP, and would be a huge waste of time for most people.  They 
>>>would be  better off spending their time reading through the 
>>>documentation of XR to  find  the platform and feature differences, 
>>>and then spend time reading the  theory  of topics they aren't 
>>>already an expert in.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Brian McGahan, CCIE #8593 (R&S/SP/Security) bmcgahan_at_INE.com
>>>> 
>>>> Internetwork Expert, Inc.
>>>> http://www.INE.com
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nobody_at_groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody_at_groupstudy.com] On 
>>>>Behalf Of
>>> Kenneth Ratliff
>>>> Sent: Monday, October 29, 2012 3:19 PM
>>>> To: ccielab_at_groupstudy.com
>>>> Subject: Re: CCIE Service Providerv3 - General Question
>>>> 
>>>> On 10/26/12 7:29 PM, "Brian McGahan" <bmcgahan_at_ine.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Right, there are obviously differences between the two OSes, both 
>>>>>in  hardware and software, but for any true CCIE this should not be 
>>>>>an  issue.
>>>>> The point of the CCIE is to obtain the level of expert in network  
>>>>>engineering.  As an expert you should have a deep theoretical 
>>>>>knowledge  of why and how different networking technologies work.  
>>>>>OSPF is OSPF,  BGP is BGP, whether it's on IOS, IOS XR, NX-OS, 
>>>>>JunOS, etc.
>>>> 
>>>> Yeah, that's the kind of viewpoint that causes outages. When you 
>>>> start
>>> thinking like this, you tend to make some very, very bad assumptions.
>>>Of
>>> course, you might live you in a world where vendors never change 
>>>options  or  defaults between platforms or even OS revisions on the 
>>>same platform,  never  mind the consideration of interoperability.
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> What I'm saying is that if you're a CCIE in R&S - an  *expert* in
>>>>> Routing & Switching technologies - and you need to start back at CCNA
>>>>> level for the Service Provider track, then you have failed.  You've
>>>>> failed yourself as you've missed the entire point of CCIE to begin
>>>>> with.
>>>> 
>>>> There's something about this I find to be fairly offensive, and quite
>>>>a
>>>> bit
>>> elitist. Do you honestly believe that achieving a CCIE means you never
>>> have to
>>> go back to basics? You never have to review? That you don't have that
>>> much to
>>> learn?
>>>> 
>>>> When you're dealing with an unfamiliar platform and a new OS, I think
>>>> it's
>>> prudent to probably start with the basics. I'd expect a CCIE to be
>>>able to
>>> breeze through it, since it should simply be a matter of reconciling
>>>the
>>> differences with what you already know, but to say that you've failed
>>> yourself
>>> by making an attempt to cover all the bases? I think that's a bit too
>>> cavalier.
>>>> 
>>>> 
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