RE: CCIE Service Providerv3 - General Question

I can understand both of your arguments - and I'm not as experienced as a teacher as you both - but I can say this -

Each student is very different.

Self Confidence in some is a cavalier attitude or lack of respect for the material in others... I had a Student in my rather advanced CCNP Class (which I guess would be CCNP-ROUTE Today? - anyway - he used the TK's to pass the CCNP tests in the first 2 weeks of the class and laughed at the other students for "sitting around and listen to that guy talk".

Would that guy have excelled with either of your approaches? Probably not...

I have also interviewed my fair share of CCIE R&S's for different positions at customer's offices. DHCP. ARP. DHCP SNOOPING. DAI. SPT Switchover.

Nothing.

Wow.

It shouldn't be this hard for an "Expert"! They "passed" the lab, but have no theory or debug memory in their hands to speak from...

I think Brian's approach would work for me - but some would want Narbik's approach of starting at the basics. To each his own.

Thanks

-----Original Message-----
From: nobody_at_groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody_at_groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of Narbik Kocharians
Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2012 2:19 AM
To: Paul Negron
Cc: Imran Ali; Brian McGahan; Tom Kacprzynski; John Gitau; Cisco certification; Shaughn; Yuri Bank
Subject: Re: CCIE Service Providerv3 - General Question

Brain,

If we go based on your philosophy, why would a good solid CCIE purchase your workbooks or even attend a boot camp? They should just study on their own, then, why did you write a book and purchased racks if this is your philosophy?

Many CCIEs (NOT ALL) take three to five attempts to pass, because some of the vendors teach them how to pass the lab (I am NOT saying that they
cheat) but the focus of their material is to help the students pass the lab, *this is NOT bad*, but it is one philosophy. And the end result is that the student ends up spending over 15K not to count the rack rental/purchase and the time that they have spent studying, and they are happy that they got a lab that they knew 80 percent or more of the subjects.

Our philosophy is a little different, i guess our students will second that. I believe that if these guys had gone back to basics (In certain subjects), they probably would have saved themselves lots of time, money and disappointment.

The following is the curriculum for one of the CCNA-SP books that we teach, can you identify how many of these topics are covered in the R&S blueprint?

*Routed Network Technologies I*

 Implement EIGRPv4 and EIGRPv6 on Cisco IOS, IOS-XE and
IOS-XR routers

 Describe route redistribution

 Describe VRF

 Describe GRE

*Cisco Operating Systems and Platforms I*

 Implement basic Cisco IOS, IOS-XE and IOS-XR CLI operations

 Implement basic Cisco IOS, IOS-XE and IOS-XR routers
configurations

*Transport Technologies*

 Describe SONET and SDH

 Describe DWDM, IPoDWDM, and ROADM

 Configure 10 Gigabit Ethernet, 40 Gigabit Ethernet, and
100 Gigabit Ethernet interfaces on Cisco routers

 Describe Frame Relay

 Describe ATM

 Describe Metro Ethernet

 Describe DSL

 Describe T1, T3, E1, E3, and ISDN

 Implement PPP encapsulation on Cisco routers serial and
POS interfaces

 Describe cable (DOCSIS)

 Describe the main BRAS and BNG routers functions in IP NGN

 Describe various Passive Optical Network (PON) access
technologies and FTTx

*Security in the Network*

 Describe IPsec

 Describe the relationships between users, user groups,
tasks groups and task IDs in IOS-XR

 Describe common types of network attacks

My friend this is just SOME of the subjects that WE are going to cover in our CCNA-SP track, now if you like I can post some of the CCNP subjects so you can see what Paul and I are referring to. Some of the CCIE-SP workbooks/boot camps out there go as far as our CCNA/CCNP level.

We have a workbook and a boot camp for CCIE SP track as well, and it has three volumes and we are about to add three more volumes, because we are not satisfied that a CCIE SP (A solid one) should ONLY know what the blueprint identifies. I guess that is also another difference between us and some of the vendors out there.

On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 10:15 PM, Paul Negron <negron.paul_at_gmail.com> wrote:

> As Brian said,
>
>
> If you are attempting an SP Bootcamp than you need not worry too much
> about the major REAL LIFE differences.
>
> My point is an IOS-XR primer might be in order to see the differences
> you WILL be experiencing. CCNA would be perfect for someone who is NOT
> Route Switch Savvy though.
>
> For real life applications, XR is much more powerful in show and debug
> commands that simply do NOT exist in IOS.
>
>
> For the EXAM:
>
> There are NO route-maps so at any time they can pick at RPL which if
> not prepared, you would have issues. For now it is light but they
> could make it difficult whenever they feel like it.
>
> Paul
>
>
> Paul Negron
> CCIE# 14856
> negron.paul_at_gmail.com
> 303-725-8162
>
>
>
> On Oct 26, 2012, at 5:33 PM, Imran Ali <immrccie_at_gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Paul,
>
> i am also looking for SP after RS, but apart from different syntax ,
> for which i assume one or two week of practice is enough .
>
> what major software advantageous does XR have and IOS lacks?
>
> On Sat, Oct 27, 2012 at 1:22 AM, Paul Negron <negron.paul_at_gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> My 2 cents,
>>
>> I agree that the learning curve of basic commands from IOS to IOS-XR
>> is easy enough but the sub options carry some hefty differences. I
>> can show you some flags in Multicast that might make you scratch your
>> head a few times.
>>
>> The line cards are truly distributed and much different output is
>> available then anything else for IOS that can help aid in troubleshooting.
>>
>> I would agree that your workbook assumes that you would be at an
>> Advanced CCIE R& S level. Narbik and I do not take that approach. I
>> guess that is a difference of opinion. (Agree to disagree).
>>
>> If you have little experience with IOS-XR, I can see how you would
>> say the differences are Very Minor.
>> I've been messing around with it for 6 years and STILL sift through
>> some cool stuff that can be very helpful.
>>
>> Paul
>>
>> Paul Negron
>> CCIE# 14856
>> negron.paul_at_gmail.com
>>
>>
>>
>> On Oct 26, 2012, at 4:19 PM, Brian McGahan <bmcgahan_at_ine.com> wrote:
>>
>> > No offense Narbik, but I don't necessarily agree with this statement.
>> If you're already at the CCIE R&S level then going back to CCNA SP
>> is going to be a waste of time in my opinion. Passing CCIE R&S today
>> already assumes that you already have an expert level understanding
>> of layer 2 technologies, IPv4, IPv6, IGP, BGP, and Intra-AS MPLS L3VPN.
>> >
>> > CCIE SP is not a large stretch beyond this. It's essentially an
>> > MPLS +
>> BGP exam. If you *really* understand the core of MPLS already, then
>> you just need to know how Inter-AS L3VPN works, L2VPN (which is very
>> simple), and some enhanced services like Multicast over L3VPN, and of
>> course IOS XR syntax.
>> >
>> > Tom, as to what you previously said:
>> >
>> > "I'm thinking that learning the theory and implementing it on IOS
>> > would
>> take significant time. Then applying that same knowledge to XR might
>> not
be
>> as hard. I'm not sure if that makes much sense without knowing XR
>> that much, but I would think that most of the features are similar
>> with some
new
>> additional ones first implemented on the XR line. Anyone agree or
disagree?"
>> >
>> > This is 100% correct. If you understand first how all the
>> > technologies
>> work on IOS, there is very little involved in porting this to XR. Of
>> course there is a learning curve with the syntax, but beyond this the
>> *vast* majority of features work exactly the same. After all,
>> networking is highly based on open standards protocols, e.g. OSPF,
>> IS-IS, BGP, LDP, etc., so as long as you understand the *why* behind
>> them then it's very simple to understand the *how* on IOS XR. Of
>> course there are caveats on XR, but are by far the minority.
>> >
>> > As for the INE workbooks and videos (I can't speak for anyone
>> > else's),
>> we already assume that you're at CCIE R&S level. This means we
>> assume you are an *expert* at IGP and BGP. If you're not, then
>> you're wasting your time trying to work on the SP technologies,
>> because all their fundamental basis is coming from enterprise routing & switching.
>> >
>> > As mentioned before in the thread, MPLS Enabled Applications should
>> > be
>> seen as required reading for this track. Beyond this I would mainly
>> focus on the documentation. This of course assumes you are already
>> at CCIE R&S level for the other topics.
>> >
>> > We've had an extensive number of candidates that were already CCIE
>> > R&S,
>> used INE's SPv3 ATC videos and the SPv3 workbook and then passed the exam.
>> Let me know if you have more specific questions about it.
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> >
>> > Brian McGahan, CCIE #8593 (R&S/SP/Security) bmcgahan_at_INE.com
>> >
>> > Internetwork Expert, Inc.
>> > http://www.INE.com <http://www.ine.com/>
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: nobody_at_groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody_at_groupstudy.com] On
>> > Behalf
>> Of Narbik Kocharians
>> > Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2012 12:08 PM
>> > To: Tom Kacprzynski
>> > Cc: John Gitau; Cisco certification; Shaughn; Yuri Bank
>> > Subject: Re: CCIE Service Providerv3 - General Question
>> >
>> > To All,
>> >
>> > The best way to approach this is to go through the SP-CCNA/SP-CCNP
>> classes/materials, recently the old MPLS was removed and it was
>> replaced with the new SP CCNA and CCNP, which i think was the BEST
>> move Cisco has ever made for SP certs.
>> >
>> > You can start with SPNGN1 and then SPNGN2 for your CCNA end then
>> > for
>> SP-CCNP you need 4 courses: SPRoute, SPAdvRoute, SPCore, SPEdge.
>> >
>> > One of the best curriculums
>> >
>> >
>> > On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 5:53 PM, Tom Kacprzynski
>> > <tom.kac_at_gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Whether Cisco is big in DWDM space or not is one conversation to
>> >> have, but could you guys share with me what type of materials you
>> >> used to study topics like DWDM, ATM or SONET for the CCIE SP
>> >> written test? I know that these topics can be very deep in the
>> >> amount of complexity
>> and information.
>> >>
>> >> Thanks everyone,
>> >>
>> >> Tom
>> >>
>> >> **
>> >> On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 6:05 AM, John Gitau <jgitau_at_gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> most of our clients run Cisco dwdm/optical gear
>> >>>
>> >>> Sent from my iPad
>> >>>
>> >>> On 25 Oct 2012, at 11:11, Shaughn <maniac.smg_at_gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> Cisco are big in the DWDM/Optical space. I have worked with very
>> >>>> large
>> >>> ISP's running Cisco in that layer of the network.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> CCIE # 23962 (SP)
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On 25 Oct 2012, at 9:54 AM, Yuri Bank <yuribank_at_gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> Everyone says that Cisco will eventually release some kind of
>> >>>>> virtualized platform for IOS-XR, but I don't see it happening.
>> >>>>> Hell, even the versions of L3/L2IOU that are floating around
>> >>>>> were
>> >>>>> *not* officially released by Cisco. I think if anything, they
>> >>>>> will go towards a hosted solution, similar to Junosphere, which
>> >>>>> kind of sucks because I really like having my own lab to tinker
>> with.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Dynamips running c7200s can do a lot of the technologies, so
>> >>>>> using it learn the theory and fundamental configurations makes
>> >>>>> a
>> lot of sense.
>> >>>>> I think this is what most people are doing.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I didn't think Cisco was big in the DWDM/SONET market (I've
>> >>>>> seen ISPs running Fujitsu, Infinera, and Alcalu for optical
>> >>>>> transport but never Cisco). I think the material on that
>> >>>>> subject would be minimal. All very much theory based.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> -Yuri
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 8:27 AM, Tom Kacprzynski
>> >>>>> <tom.kac_at_gmail.com>
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>>>>> Hi Yuri,
>> >>>>>> Good to hear from you. Looking over the written and lab
>> >>>>>> requirements,
>> >>> there
>> >>>>>> seems to be some differences. Written seems to have a lot more
>> >>>>>> of
>> >>> things
>> >>>>>> like SONET, DWDM, ATM along with the MPLS and IGP. What have
>> >>>>>> you used
>> >>> for
>> >>>>>> these topics (SONET, DWDM, ATM)? The IS-IS books looks good,
>> >>>>>> will
>> >> have
>> >>> to
>> >>>>>> check it out. I just got the MPLS book and started reading
>> >>>>>> "Traffic Engineering with MPLS" by Eric Osborne.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> I'm thinking that learning the theory and implementing it on
>> >>>>>> IOS
>> >> would
>> >>> take
>> >>>>>> significant time. Then applying that same knowledge to XR
>> >>>>>> might not
>> >> be
>> >>> as
>> >>>>>> hard. I'm not sure if that makes much sense without knowing XR
>> >>>>>> that
>> >>> much,
>> >>>>>> but I would think that most of the features are similar with
>> >>>>>> some new additional ones first implemented on the XR line.
>> >>>>>> Anyone agree or
>> >>> disagree?
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> How are the rumors of virtualized XR platform? Any development
>> there?
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Thanks
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Tom Kacprzynski
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> On Tue, Oct 23, 2012 at 11:38 PM, Yuri Bank
>> >>>>>> <yuribank_at_gmail.com>
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Hey Tom,
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> I've glanced over some of INE's material, and it looks pretty
>> good.
>> >>>>>>> However, workbooks are not the real concern, it's the lab
>> equipment!
>> >>>>>>> Anyways, I think studying for the CCIE-SP is no different
>> >>>>>>> from the R&S. *Start with the theory* At least that is what
>> >>>>>>> I've been doing. I just finished reading
>> >> 'OSPF:
>> >>>>>>> Anatomy of an Internet Routing Protocol' and 'MPLS Enabled
>> >>>>>>> Applications'.
>> >>>>>>> 'The Complete IS-IS Routing Protocol' Is next on my list.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> -Yuri
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 22, 2012 at 6:31 PM, HEMANTH RAJ
>> >>>>>>> <hemanthrj_at_gmail.com>
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>> Hi Tom
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> I was also with the same confusion as like you after
>> >>>>>>>> finishing my
>> >>> R&S.
>> >>>>>>>> But
>> >>>>>>>> now after purchasing Narbik Workbooks and INE materials for
>> >>>>>>>> CCIE
>> >>> SPV3. I
>> >>>>>>>> felt they have covered the blueprint extensively. So i would
>> >>> recommend
>> >>>>>>>> to
>> >>>>>>>> go for Narbik and INE WB if you want to pursue your SPV3.
>> >>>>>>>> I am doing the same right now.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Thanks
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 22, 2012 at 9:22 PM, Tom Kacprzynski <
>> >> tom.kac_at_gmail.com>
>> >>>>>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Hello,
>> >>>>>>>>> Now that I'm done with CCIE R&S, there is a void in my
>> >>>>>>>>> evenings,
>> >> no
>> >>>>>>>>> more
>> >>>>>>>>> date-nights with R1 and SW2 (oh memories) or practice labs.
>> >>>>>>>>> So I
>> >> was
>> >>>>>>>>> thinking of looking at the CCIE Service Provider. I wanted
>> >>>>>>>>> to get
>> >>> some
>> >>>>>>>>> feedback from people that did their RS and moved on to the
>> >>>>>>>>> Service Provider track. From my initial research I'm
>> >>>>>>>>> noticing that workbooks don't
>> >>> seem
>> >>>>>>>>> to
>> >>>>>>>>> be comprehensive as with RS, by that I mean not all topics
>> >>>>>>>>> are
>> >>> covered
>> >>>>>>>>> in
>> >>>>>>>>> them (I could be wrong). Is that partly due to the hardware
>> >>>>>>>>> requirements?
>> >>>>>>>>> What sort of major difference did you noticed studying SPv3
>> >>>>>>>>> vs RS
>> >> in
>> >>>>>>>>> terms
>> >>>>>>>>> of materials and preparation?
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Tom Kacprzynski
>> >>>>>>>>> CCIE#36159
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>> _________________________________________________________________
>> >>> ___
>> >>> ___
>> >>>>>>>>> Subscription information may be found at:
>> >>>>>>>>> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> --
>> >>>>>>>> Problems arise because we talk,problems are not solved
>> >>>>>>>> because we
>> >>> don't
>> >>>>>>>> talk So good or bad talk to your affectionate one's freely.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Yours Friendly,
>> >>>>>>>> H P HEMANTH RAJ
>> >>>>>>>> CCIE#28593 (R&S)
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>> _________________________________________________________________
>> >>> ___
>> >>> ___
>> >>>>>>>> Subscription information may be found at:
>> >>>>>>>> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >> __________________________________________________________________
>> >> ____
>> >> _
>> >>>>> Subscription information may be found at:
>> >>>>> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
>> >>>>
>> >>>> ________________________________________________________________
>> >>>> __ _____ Subscription information may be found at:
>> >>>> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
>> >>
>> >> __________________________________________________________________
>> >> ____ _ Subscription information may be found at:
>> >> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > *Narbik Kocharians
>> > *CCSI#30832, CCIE# 12410 (R&S, SP, Security)
>> > *www.MicronicsTraining.com <http://www.micronicstraining.com/>* <
>> http://www.micronicstraining.com/>
>> > Sr. Technical Instructor
>> > YES! We take Cisco Learning Credits!
>> > A Cisco Learning Partner
>> >
>> >
>> > Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
>> >
>> > ___________________________________________________________________
>> > ____ Subscription information may be found at:
>> > http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
>> >
>> >
>> > Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
>> >
>> > ___________________________________________________________________
>> > ____ Subscription information may be found at:
>> > http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
>>
>>
>> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
>>
>> _____________________________________________________________________
>> __ Subscription information may be found at:
>> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>

--
*Narbik Kocharians
*CCSI#30832, CCIE# 12410 (R&S, SP, Security)
*www.MicronicsTraining.com* <http://www.micronicstraining.com/>
Sr. Technical Instructor
YES! We take Cisco Learning Credits!
A Cisco Learning Partner
Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net