Re: CCIE Service Providerv3 - General Question

BTW, i just wrote this reply after 28 hours in different airports trying to
get home and i hope it was not offensive to anyone. I have another 9 hours
before i get home.

On Sat, Oct 27, 2012 at 2:31 AM, Joseph L. Brunner
<joe_at_affirmedsystems.com>wrote:

> I can understand both of your arguments - and I'm not as experienced as a
> teacher as you both - but I can say this -
>
> Each student is very different.
>
> Self Confidence in some is a cavalier attitude or lack of respect for the
> material in others... I had a Student in my rather advanced CCNP Class
> (which I guess would be CCNP-ROUTE Today? - anyway - he used the TK's to
> pass the CCNP tests in the first 2 weeks of the class and laughed at the
> other students for "sitting around and listen to that guy talk".
>
> Would that guy have excelled with either of your approaches? Probably
> not...
>
> I have also interviewed my fair share of CCIE R&S's for different
> positions at customer's offices. DHCP. ARP. DHCP SNOOPING. DAI. SPT
> Switchover.
>
> Nothing.
>
> Wow.
>
> It shouldn't be this hard for an "Expert"! They "passed" the lab, but have
> no theory or debug memory in their hands to speak from...
>
> I think Brian's approach would work for me - but some would want Narbik's
> approach of starting at the basics. To each his own.
>
> Thanks
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nobody_at_groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody_at_groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
> Narbik Kocharians
> Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2012 2:19 AM
> To: Paul Negron
> Cc: Imran Ali; Brian McGahan; Tom Kacprzynski; John Gitau; Cisco
> certification; Shaughn; Yuri Bank
> Subject: Re: CCIE Service Providerv3 - General Question
>
> Brain,
>
> If we go based on your philosophy, why would a good solid CCIE purchase
> your workbooks or even attend a boot camp? They should just study on their
> own, then, why did you write a book and purchased racks if this is your
> philosophy?
>
> Many CCIEs (NOT ALL) take three to five attempts to pass, because some of
> the vendors teach them how to pass the lab (I am NOT saying that they
> cheat) but the focus of their material is to help the students pass the
> lab, *this is NOT bad*, but it is one philosophy. And the end result is
> that the student ends up spending over 15K not to count the rack
> rental/purchase and the time that they have spent studying, and they are
> happy that they got a lab that they knew 80 percent or more of the subjects.
>
> Our philosophy is a little different, i guess our students will second
> that. I believe that if these guys had gone back to basics (In certain
> subjects), they probably would have saved themselves lots of time, money
> and disappointment.
>
>
> The following is the curriculum for one of the CCNA-SP books that we
> teach, can you identify how many of these topics are covered in the R&S
> blueprint?
>
> *Routed Network Technologies I*
>
> Implement EIGRPv4 and EIGRPv6 on Cisco IOS, IOS-XE and
> IOS-XR routers
>
> Describe route redistribution
>
> Describe VRF
>
> Describe GRE
>
> *Cisco Operating Systems and Platforms I*
>
> Implement basic Cisco IOS, IOS-XE and IOS-XR CLI
> operations
>
> Implement basic Cisco IOS, IOS-XE and IOS-XR routers
> configurations
>
> *Transport Technologies*
>
> Describe SONET and SDH
>
> Describe DWDM, IPoDWDM, and ROADM
>
> Configure 10 Gigabit Ethernet, 40 Gigabit Ethernet, and
> 100 Gigabit Ethernet interfaces on Cisco routers
>
> Describe Frame Relay
>
> Describe ATM
>
> Describe Metro Ethernet
>
> Describe DSL
>
> Describe T1, T3, E1, E3, and ISDN
>
> Implement PPP encapsulation on Cisco routers serial and
> POS interfaces
>
> Describe cable (DOCSIS)
>
> Describe the main BRAS and BNG routers functions in IP NGN
>
> Describe various Passive Optical Network (PON) access
> technologies and FTTx
>
> *Security in the Network*
>
> Describe IPsec
>
> Describe the relationships between users, user groups,
> tasks groups and task IDs in IOS-XR
>
> Describe common types of network attacks
>
> My friend this is just SOME of the subjects that WE are going to cover in
> our CCNA-SP track, now if you like I can post some of the CCNP subjects so
> you can see what Paul and I are referring to. Some of the CCIE-SP
> workbooks/boot camps out there go as far as our CCNA/CCNP level.
>
> We have a workbook and a boot camp for CCIE SP track as well, and it has
> three volumes and we are about to add three more volumes, because we are
> not satisfied that a CCIE SP (A solid one) should ONLY know what the
> blueprint identifies. I guess that is also another difference between us
> and some of the vendors out there.
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 10:15 PM, Paul Negron <negron.paul_at_gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > As Brian said,
> >
> >
> > If you are attempting an SP Bootcamp than you need not worry too much
> > about the major REAL LIFE differences.
> >
> > My point is an IOS-XR primer might be in order to see the differences
> > you WILL be experiencing. CCNA would be perfect for someone who is NOT
> > Route Switch Savvy though.
> >
> > For real life applications, XR is much more powerful in show and debug
> > commands that simply do NOT exist in IOS.
> >
> >
> > For the EXAM:
> >
> > There are NO route-maps so at any time they can pick at RPL which if
> > not prepared, you would have issues. For now it is light but they
> > could make it difficult whenever they feel like it.
> >
> > Paul
> >
> >
> > Paul Negron
> > CCIE# 14856
> > negron.paul_at_gmail.com
> > 303-725-8162
> >
> >
> >
> > On Oct 26, 2012, at 5:33 PM, Imran Ali <immrccie_at_gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Paul,
> >
> > i am also looking for SP after RS, but apart from different syntax ,
> > for which i assume one or two week of practice is enough .
> >
> > what major software advantageous does XR have and IOS lacks?
> >
> > On Sat, Oct 27, 2012 at 1:22 AM, Paul Negron <negron.paul_at_gmail.com
> >wrote:
> >
> >> My 2 cents,
> >>
> >> I agree that the learning curve of basic commands from IOS to IOS-XR
> >> is easy enough but the sub options carry some hefty differences. I
> >> can show you some flags in Multicast that might make you scratch your
> >> head a few times.
> >>
> >> The line cards are truly distributed and much different output is
> >> available then anything else for IOS that can help aid in
> troubleshooting.
> >>
> >> I would agree that your workbook assumes that you would be at an
> >> Advanced CCIE R& S level. Narbik and I do not take that approach. I
> >> guess that is a difference of opinion. (Agree to disagree).
> >>
> >> If you have little experience with IOS-XR, I can see how you would
> >> say the differences are Very Minor.
> >> I've been messing around with it for 6 years and STILL sift through
> >> some cool stuff that can be very helpful.
> >>
> >> Paul
> >>
> >> Paul Negron
> >> CCIE# 14856
> >> negron.paul_at_gmail.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Oct 26, 2012, at 4:19 PM, Brian McGahan <bmcgahan_at_ine.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> > No offense Narbik, but I don't necessarily agree with this statement.
> >> If you're already at the CCIE R&S level then going back to CCNA SP
> >> is going to be a waste of time in my opinion. Passing CCIE R&S today
> >> already assumes that you already have an expert level understanding
> >> of layer 2 technologies, IPv4, IPv6, IGP, BGP, and Intra-AS MPLS L3VPN.
> >> >
> >> > CCIE SP is not a large stretch beyond this. It's essentially an
> >> > MPLS +
> >> BGP exam. If you *really* understand the core of MPLS already, then
> >> you just need to know how Inter-AS L3VPN works, L2VPN (which is very
> >> simple), and some enhanced services like Multicast over L3VPN, and of
> >> course IOS XR syntax.
> >> >
> >> > Tom, as to what you previously said:
> >> >
> >> > "I'm thinking that learning the theory and implementing it on IOS
> >> > would
> >> take significant time. Then applying that same knowledge to XR might
> >> not
> be
> >> as hard. I'm not sure if that makes much sense without knowing XR
> >> that much, but I would think that most of the features are similar
> >> with some
> new
> >> additional ones first implemented on the XR line. Anyone agree or
> disagree?"
> >> >
> >> > This is 100% correct. If you understand first how all the
> >> > technologies
> >> work on IOS, there is very little involved in porting this to XR. Of
> >> course there is a learning curve with the syntax, but beyond this the
> >> *vast* majority of features work exactly the same. After all,
> >> networking is highly based on open standards protocols, e.g. OSPF,
> >> IS-IS, BGP, LDP, etc., so as long as you understand the *why* behind
> >> them then it's very simple to understand the *how* on IOS XR. Of
> >> course there are caveats on XR, but are by far the minority.
> >> >
> >> > As for the INE workbooks and videos (I can't speak for anyone
> >> > else's),
> >> we already assume that you're at CCIE R&S level. This means we
> >> assume you are an *expert* at IGP and BGP. If you're not, then
> >> you're wasting your time trying to work on the SP technologies,
> >> because all their fundamental basis is coming from enterprise routing &
> switching.
> >> >
> >> > As mentioned before in the thread, MPLS Enabled Applications should
> >> > be
> >> seen as required reading for this track. Beyond this I would mainly
> >> focus on the documentation. This of course assumes you are already
> >> at CCIE R&S level for the other topics.
> >> >
> >> > We've had an extensive number of candidates that were already CCIE
> >> > R&S,
> >> used INE's SPv3 ATC videos and the SPv3 workbook and then passed the
> exam.
> >> Let me know if you have more specific questions about it.
> >> >
> >> > Thanks,
> >> >
> >> > Brian McGahan, CCIE #8593 (R&S/SP/Security) bmcgahan_at_INE.com
> >> >
> >> > Internetwork Expert, Inc.
> >> > http://www.INE.com <http://www.ine.com/>
> >> >
> >> > -----Original Message-----
> >> > From: nobody_at_groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody_at_groupstudy.com] On
> >> > Behalf
> >> Of Narbik Kocharians
> >> > Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2012 12:08 PM
> >> > To: Tom Kacprzynski
> >> > Cc: John Gitau; Cisco certification; Shaughn; Yuri Bank
> >> > Subject: Re: CCIE Service Providerv3 - General Question
> >> >
> >> > To All,
> >> >
> >> > The best way to approach this is to go through the SP-CCNA/SP-CCNP
> >> classes/materials, recently the old MPLS was removed and it was
> >> replaced with the new SP CCNA and CCNP, which i think was the BEST
> >> move Cisco has ever made for SP certs.
> >> >
> >> > You can start with SPNGN1 and then SPNGN2 for your CCNA end then
> >> > for
> >> SP-CCNP you need 4 courses: SPRoute, SPAdvRoute, SPCore, SPEdge.
> >> >
> >> > One of the best curriculums
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 5:53 PM, Tom Kacprzynski
> >> > <tom.kac_at_gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Whether Cisco is big in DWDM space or not is one conversation to
> >> >> have, but could you guys share with me what type of materials you
> >> >> used to study topics like DWDM, ATM or SONET for the CCIE SP
> >> >> written test? I know that these topics can be very deep in the
> >> >> amount of complexity
> >> and information.
> >> >>
> >> >> Thanks everyone,
> >> >>
> >> >> Tom
> >> >>
> >> >> **
> >> >> On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 6:05 AM, John Gitau <jgitau_at_gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>> most of our clients run Cisco dwdm/optical gear
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Sent from my iPad
> >> >>>
> >> >>> On 25 Oct 2012, at 11:11, Shaughn <maniac.smg_at_gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>>> Cisco are big in the DWDM/Optical space. I have worked with very
> >> >>>> large
> >> >>> ISP's running Cisco in that layer of the network.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> CCIE # 23962 (SP)
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Sent from my iPhone
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> On 25 Oct 2012, at 9:54 AM, Yuri Bank <yuribank_at_gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>> Everyone says that Cisco will eventually release some kind of
> >> >>>>> virtualized platform for IOS-XR, but I don't see it happening.
> >> >>>>> Hell, even the versions of L3/L2IOU that are floating around
> >> >>>>> were
> >> >>>>> *not* officially released by Cisco. I think if anything, they
> >> >>>>> will go towards a hosted solution, similar to Junosphere, which
> >> >>>>> kind of sucks because I really like having my own lab to tinker
> >> with.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Dynamips running c7200s can do a lot of the technologies, so
> >> >>>>> using it learn the theory and fundamental configurations makes
> >> >>>>> a
> >> lot of sense.
> >> >>>>> I think this is what most people are doing.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> I didn't think Cisco was big in the DWDM/SONET market (I've
> >> >>>>> seen ISPs running Fujitsu, Infinera, and Alcalu for optical
> >> >>>>> transport but never Cisco). I think the material on that
> >> >>>>> subject would be minimal. All very much theory based.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> -Yuri
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 8:27 AM, Tom Kacprzynski
> >> >>>>> <tom.kac_at_gmail.com>
> >> >>> wrote:
> >> >>>>>> Hi Yuri,
> >> >>>>>> Good to hear from you. Looking over the written and lab
> >> >>>>>> requirements,
> >> >>> there
> >> >>>>>> seems to be some differences. Written seems to have a lot more
> >> >>>>>> of
> >> >>> things
> >> >>>>>> like SONET, DWDM, ATM along with the MPLS and IGP. What have
> >> >>>>>> you used
> >> >>> for
> >> >>>>>> these topics (SONET, DWDM, ATM)? The IS-IS books looks good,
> >> >>>>>> will
> >> >> have
> >> >>> to
> >> >>>>>> check it out. I just got the MPLS book and started reading
> >> >>>>>> "Traffic Engineering with MPLS" by Eric Osborne.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> I'm thinking that learning the theory and implementing it on
> >> >>>>>> IOS
> >> >> would
> >> >>> take
> >> >>>>>> significant time. Then applying that same knowledge to XR
> >> >>>>>> might not
> >> >> be
> >> >>> as
> >> >>>>>> hard. I'm not sure if that makes much sense without knowing XR
> >> >>>>>> that
> >> >>> much,
> >> >>>>>> but I would think that most of the features are similar with
> >> >>>>>> some new additional ones first implemented on the XR line.
> >> >>>>>> Anyone agree or
> >> >>> disagree?
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> How are the rumors of virtualized XR platform? Any development
> >> there?
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Thanks
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Tom Kacprzynski
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> On Tue, Oct 23, 2012 at 11:38 PM, Yuri Bank
> >> >>>>>> <yuribank_at_gmail.com>
> >> >>> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> Hey Tom,
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> I've glanced over some of INE's material, and it looks pretty
> >> good.
> >> >>>>>>> However, workbooks are not the real concern, it's the lab
> >> equipment!
> >> >>>>>>> Anyways, I think studying for the CCIE-SP is no different
> >> >>>>>>> from the R&S. *Start with the theory* At least that is what
> >> >>>>>>> I've been doing. I just finished reading
> >> >> 'OSPF:
> >> >>>>>>> Anatomy of an Internet Routing Protocol' and 'MPLS Enabled
> >> >>>>>>> Applications'.
> >> >>>>>>> 'The Complete IS-IS Routing Protocol' Is next on my list.
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> -Yuri
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 22, 2012 at 6:31 PM, HEMANTH RAJ
> >> >>>>>>> <hemanthrj_at_gmail.com>
> >> >>> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>> Hi Tom
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> I was also with the same confusion as like you after
> >> >>>>>>>> finishing my
> >> >>> R&S.
> >> >>>>>>>> But
> >> >>>>>>>> now after purchasing Narbik Workbooks and INE materials for
> >> >>>>>>>> CCIE
> >> >>> SPV3. I
> >> >>>>>>>> felt they have covered the blueprint extensively. So i would
> >> >>> recommend
> >> >>>>>>>> to
> >> >>>>>>>> go for Narbik and INE WB if you want to pursue your SPV3.
> >> >>>>>>>> I am doing the same right now.
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> Thanks
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 22, 2012 at 9:22 PM, Tom Kacprzynski <
> >> >> tom.kac_at_gmail.com>
> >> >>>>>>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>> Hello,
> >> >>>>>>>>> Now that I'm done with CCIE R&S, there is a void in my
> >> >>>>>>>>> evenings,
> >> >> no
> >> >>>>>>>>> more
> >> >>>>>>>>> date-nights with R1 and SW2 (oh memories) or practice labs.
> >> >>>>>>>>> So I
> >> >> was
> >> >>>>>>>>> thinking of looking at the CCIE Service Provider. I wanted
> >> >>>>>>>>> to get
> >> >>> some
> >> >>>>>>>>> feedback from people that did their RS and moved on to the
> >> >>>>>>>>> Service Provider track. From my initial research I'm
> >> >>>>>>>>> noticing that workbooks don't
> >> >>> seem
> >> >>>>>>>>> to
> >> >>>>>>>>> be comprehensive as with RS, by that I mean not all topics
> >> >>>>>>>>> are
> >> >>> covered
> >> >>>>>>>>> in
> >> >>>>>>>>> them (I could be wrong). Is that partly due to the hardware
> >> >>>>>>>>> requirements?
> >> >>>>>>>>> What sort of major difference did you noticed studying SPv3
> >> >>>>>>>>> vs RS
> >> >> in
> >> >>>>>>>>> terms
> >> >>>>>>>>> of materials and preparation?
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>> Thanks
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>> Tom Kacprzynski
> >> >>>>>>>>> CCIE#36159
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>> _________________________________________________________________
> >> >>> ___
> >> >>> ___
> >> >>>>>>>>> Subscription information may be found at:
> >> >>>>>>>>> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> --
> >> >>>>>>>> Problems arise because we talk,problems are not solved
> >> >>>>>>>> because we
> >> >>> don't
> >> >>>>>>>> talk So good or bad talk to your affectionate one's freely.
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> Yours Friendly,
> >> >>>>>>>> H P HEMANTH RAJ
> >> >>>>>>>> CCIE#28593 (R&S)
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>> _________________________________________________________________
> >> >>> ___
> >> >>> ___
> >> >>>>>>>> Subscription information may be found at:
> >> >>>>>>>> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >> __________________________________________________________________
> >> >> ____
> >> >> _
> >> >>>>> Subscription information may be found at:
> >> >>>>> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> ________________________________________________________________
> >> >>>> __ _____ Subscription information may be found at:
> >> >>>> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
> >> >>
> >> >> __________________________________________________________________
> >> >> ____ _ Subscription information may be found at:
> >> >> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > *Narbik Kocharians
> >> > *CCSI#30832, CCIE# 12410 (R&S, SP, Security)
> >> > *www.MicronicsTraining.com <http://www.micronicstraining.com/>* <
> >> http://www.micronicstraining.com/>
> >> > Sr. Technical Instructor
> >> > YES! We take Cisco Learning Credits!
> >> > A Cisco Learning Partner
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
> >> >
> >> > ___________________________________________________________________
> >> > ____ Subscription information may be found at:
> >> > http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
> >> >
> >> > ___________________________________________________________________
> >> > ____ Subscription information may be found at:
> >> > http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> >>
> >>
> >> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
> >>
> >> _____________________________________________________________________
> >> __ Subscription information may be found at:
> >> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> *Narbik Kocharians
> *CCSI#30832, CCIE# 12410 (R&S, SP, Security)
> *www.MicronicsTraining.com* <http://www.micronicstraining.com/>
> Sr. Technical Instructor
> YES! We take Cisco Learning Credits!
> A Cisco Learning Partner
>
>
> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
>
> _______________________________________________________________________
> Subscription information may be found at:
> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

-- 
*Narbik Kocharians
*CCSI#30832, CCIE# 12410 (R&S, SP, Security)
*www.MicronicsTraining.com* <http://www.micronicstraining.com/>
Sr. Technical Instructor
YES! We take Cisco Learning Credits!
A Cisco Learning Partner
Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net