Re: PhD vs CCIE

Nice insight Bill.
You are spot on, these folk tends to be not documenting anything.
I guess thats why such menatlity people don't do documentation. I have seen
a company running 4 or 5 routers and customer hangging off them and they
ahve no time to document. Impossible.
Perhaps those were the small companies that do this way.
at the bigger scale it's just not possible, whenever i worked for a
customer with large scale deployment, they have proper strategy - i.e.
strictly follow Cisco *TM* PPDIOO.

On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 6:40 PM, Bill6521 <bil6521_at_netscape.net> wrote:

> Hi Frog,
>
> Every project is different but the truth is that if there is a person in
> an organisation - either through skills or even just hard work has made
> himself irreplacable then that person is not the problem - the management
> is. The management is the problem for allowing the situation to develop in
> the first place - no person in any organisation should have so much
> control/information that they are irreplaceable. One of the reasons that
> many network projects actually fail - even though they are
> functioning properly - at least at handover and that one person becomes
> irreplacable is that the projects are poorly documented in terms of
> description of functionality, design, diagrams, manuals, operational
> procedures etc. As engineers we tend to hate documentation but any network
> project should be well enough documented so that any engineer can come on
> to the job and be proficient enough to follow the documentation at least
> that way you minimise the risk of being irreplaceable.
>
> Regards,
>
> Bill
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Radioactive Frog <pbhatkoti_at_gmail.com>
> To: Narbik Kocharians <narbikk_at_gmail.com>
> Cc: Bill6521 <bil6521_at_netscape.net>; joe <joe_at_affirmedsystems.com>;
> jazzsunn <jazzsunn_at_gmail.com>; ccielab <ccielab_at_groupstudy.com>
> Sent: Wed, Mar 7, 2012 6:54 am
> Subject: Re: PhD vs CCIE
>
> >>>When you go to a Service Provider environment you are totally
> lost because you are not used to their environments. So you see you need
> different qualifications, some do it through years of hard work and some do
> it by going to one of these vendor certs. The guy with lots of experience
> does it a certain way because he has done it that way for years, and he is
> the king of his castle, but no real technical explanation as to why he does
> it that way?
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> Well said Narbik! You've the real experience.
> This is exactly what I am seeing for the last 4-5 years. If you try to
> suggest them the right way of doing things, they think you're trying to
> capture their castle.
>
> How do people manage in a such situation? i.e. core network being
> managed by such non qualified (well i should not say not qualified but the
> fact is they don't know technology from all angle).
>
> @Bill - You being a people manager sometime , how would u deal in this
> situation?
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 5:53 AM, Narbik Kocharians <narbikk_at_gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Bill6521,
>>
>> 35 years ago that was the case, if you were in IT, you did everything from
>> running jobs, doing installations, fixing JCLs, working on front end
>> processors, running and maintaining CICS, VTAM, MVS, VM and you also had
>> to
>> take care of multi-drop links and international links, Data scoping, and
>> installation of all hardware as well. Later on you had the connectivity of
>> PC world to the main frames using Novel or MS or even Cisco's solution
>> (EBCDIC --> ASCII).
>>
>> But these days, each department has its crew of professionals/engineers,
>> the security guys don't like the R&S guys to touch their security
>> appliances, the Voice guys don't want the security guys around their voice
>> appliances. When you go to a Service Provider environment you are totally
>> lost because you are not used to their environments. So you see you need
>> different qualifications, some do it through years of hard work and some
>> do
>> it by going to one of these vendor certs. The guy with lots of experience
>> does it a certain way because he has done it that way for years, and he is
>> the king of his castle, but no real technical explanation as to why he
>> does
>> it that way?
>>
>> I mention 35 years ago, because i have that many years in this business,
>> and i started with IBM as well, and have lots of international experience.
>> And no matter where you go, CCIEs are very valuable, you may see a manager
>> that has no clue and does not know the value of a CCIE, but overall they
>> are very much respected. As far as PHD versus CCIE, a real bad comparison.
>> I don't believe that CCIEs or PHDs will discuss the differences, it's like
>> comparing apples to oranges. I have my masters degree and i stopped
>> because
>> i realised learning Fortran, COBOL, RPG is stupid, now....these days the
>> curriculum is somewhat inline with yesterdays/todays networks but i don't
>> see the benefit of a PHD unless you like to be in management. But a CCIE
>> with a degree or Masters degree will be more valuable, now in your case
>> you
>> have your CCIE as well, which is very nice.
>>
>> But I know that you were kidding or trying to piss some people off with
>> your coffee jokes.
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 10:25 AM, Bill6521 <bil6521_at_netscape.net> wrote:
>>
>> > Thats a nice question Narbikk. The answer is no but for one reason -
>> PhDs
>> > are awarded by many universities but CCIEs are only awarded by one
>> company.
>> > Is the question therefore do we really need so many types of CCIE or
>> could
>> > we consolidate them into a more generalist CCIE. Doesnt the whole
>> concept
>> > of UC for example mean for example that we need a more generalist sort
>> of
>> > CCIE again ie what CCIE discipline doesnt have a high proportion of
>> Routing
>> > and Switching ? Couldnt we revert back to a three day CCIE where you did
>> > the core as Routing and Switching and then the other two days in the
>> > specialist areas - security, wireless, service provider, etc
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: Narbik Kocharians <narbikk_at_gmail.com>
>> > To: Bill6521 <bil6521_at_netscape.net>
>> > CC: joe <joe_at_affirmedsystems.com>; jazzsunn <jazzsunn_at_gmail.com>;
>> ccielab
>> > <ccielab_at_groupstudy.com>
>> > Sent: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 19:18
>> > Subject: Re: PhD vs CCIE
>> >
>> > Few years ago we had one or two tracks, these days we have more tracks.
>> Do
>> > we know the number of people who have their PHDs?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 8:38 AM, Bill6521 <bil6521_at_netscape.net> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Hi Joe,
>> >>
>> >> Agreed and why do you think there are now 26,000 CCIEs against 10,000 a
>> >> few
>> >> years ago - even certification is a money making business - I
>> estimated I
>> >> spent around $30000 on getting my CCIE - between courses , labs, exams,
>> >> bootcamps , time of work - and I didnt pass it first time. I think
>> there
>> >> is
>> >> only a 20% first time pass rate now and that means a lot of money to
>> >> someone.
>> >>
>> >> And by the way I dont mind people making money out of me - even on
>> >> certification as long as I get value for money.
>> >>
>> >> Regards,
>> >>
>> >> Bill
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: Joseph L. Brunner <joe_at_affirmedsystems.com>
>> >> To: Bill6521 <bil6521_at_netscape.net>; jazzsunn <jazzsunn_at_gmail.com>;
>> >> ccielab
>> >> <ccielab_at_groupstudy.com>
>> >> Sent: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 17:34
>> >> Subject: RE: PhD vs CCIE
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Ib d bet dollars to cents 10,000+ of the 17,320 R/S guys are
>> emeritusb&
>> >>
>> >> If Cisco didnb t do that the cert would look like it isnb t as
>> valuable as
>> >> it was in 1999 and they couldnb t make as much money selling training
>> for
>> >> it
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> From: Bill6521 [mailto:bil6521_at_netscape.net]
>> >> Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2012 11:29 AM
>> >> To: Joseph L. Brunner; jazzsunn_at_gmail.com; ccielab_at_groupstudy.com
>> >> Subject: Re: PhD vs CCIE
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Hi Joseph,
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Read my article in CCIE Flyer. Nor did they break it down by age or
>> sex or
>> >> nationality.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Regards,
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Bill
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: Joseph L. Brunner <joe_at_affirmedsystems.com>
>> >> To: jazzsunn <jazzsunn_at_gmail.com>; Bill6521 <bil6521_at_netscape.net>;
>> >> ccielab
>> >> <ccielab_at_groupstudy.com>
>> >> Sent: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 17:22
>> >> Subject: RE: PhD vs CCIE
>> >>
>> >> Notice they don't break down how many "Emeritus"
>> >>
>> >> LOL
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: jazzsunn_at_gmail.com [mailto:jazzsunn_at_gmail.com]
>> >> Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2012 11:15 AM
>> >> To: Joseph L. Brunner; Bill6521; ccielab_at_groupstudy.com
>> >> Subject: Re: PhD vs CCIE
>> >>
>> >> According to LTRCC-3000.pdf (updated 1/9/12, available on
>> >> ciscolivevirtual.com),
>> >> there are 26,634 currently certified CCIEs.
>> >> RS - 17,320
>> >> Sec - 3794
>> >> SP - 2885
>> >> Voice - 2291
>> >> SAN - 170
>> >> Wireless - 93
>> >> CCDE - 63
>> >> SP Ops - 11
>> >> CCAr - 7
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Sent via BlackBerry
>> >>
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: "Joseph L. Brunner" <joe_at_affirmedsystems.com>
>> >> Sender: nobody_at_groupstudy.com
>> >> Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 16:07:02
>> >> To: Bill6521<bil6521_at_netscape.net>;
>> >> ccielab_at_groupstudy.com<ccielab_at_groupstudy.com>
>> >> Reply-To: "Joseph L. Brunner" <joe_at_affirmedsystems.com>
>> >> Subject: RE: PhD vs CCIE
>> >>
>> >> No there are far less CCIE's than that - many older lions are retiring
>> >> from
>> >> the
>> >> business.
>> >>
>> >> Of that number how many are current on today's technologies?
>> >>
>> >> Don't sell yourself short - I had a job req out at a client in 2009
>> for a
>> >> CCIE
>> >> at $225,000 or so - the first 50 guys we interviewed could not explain
>> how
>> >> DHCP
>> >> worked :) (DoRa for those of you that know)
>> >>
>> >> "how many good ones"
>> >>
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: nobody_at_groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody_at_groupstudy.com] On Behalf
>> Of
>> >> Bill6521
>> >> Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2012 10:57 AM
>> >> To: ccielab_at_groupstudy.com
>> >> Subject: Fwd: PhD vs CCIE
>> >>
>> >> Hi Guys,
>> >>
>> >> I think we are all missing the point here the discussion from my point
>> of
>> >> view
>> >> is "employability" and here is my perspective. Today I understand there
>> >> are
>> >> over
>> >> 30,000 CCIEs thats three times what there was a few years ago and even
>> >> 7,000 more then when I got my number. Gone are the days when employers
>> >> would
>> >> be
>> >> lucky about getting one CCIE and we were literally regarded as "network
>> >> gods".
>> >> We are competing against "each other" and in a highly competitive world
>> >> - even as CCIEs. In that competitive world you have to give yourself an
>> >> "edge"
>> >> a something extra - what I would suggest is dont just bank on getting
>> >> employed
>> >> because you are a CCIE - and dont forget some off us are also getting
>> >> employed
>> >> because we have track records as well as being CCIEs. Most employment
>> >> agents/HR
>> >> departments do a word trawl in the first instance and the more edge you
>> >> have
>> >> the
>> >> more likely you have to move to the next stage of interview etc thats
>> what
>> >> these
>> >> certifications do for you - and dont also be a one trick pony
>> >> - consider doing a JNCIE or HP Master ASE as well as another CCIE.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
>> >>
>> >>
>> _______________________________________________________________________
>> >> Subscription information may be found at:
>> >> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________________________________
>> >> Subscription information may be found at:
>> >> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________________________________
>> >> Subscription information may be found at:
>> >> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > *Narbik Kocharians
>> > *CCSI#30832, CCIE# 12410 (R&S, SP, Security)
>> > *www.MicronicsTraining.com <http://www.micronicstraining.com/>*
>> > Sr. Technical Instructor
>> > YES! We take Cisco Learning Credits!
>> > Training & Remote Racks available
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> --
>> *Narbik Kocharians
>> *CCSI#30832, CCIE# 12410 (R&S, SP, Security)
>> *www.MicronicsTraining.com <http://www.micronicstraining.com/>* <
>> http://www.micronicstraining.com/>
>> Sr. Technical Instructor
>> YES! We take Cisco Learning Credits!
>> Training & Remote Racks available
>>
>>
>> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
>>
>> _______________________________________________________________________
>> Subscription information may be found at:
>> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html

Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
Received on Wed Mar 07 2012 - 20:58:17 ART