Re: OT: CCIE != PhD

OK here is my take on this.

Ibm a product of European and US graduate schools and a CCIE. I spent years
at the library and lab doing research. I also spent countless hours in the
last year prior to my CCIE lab practicing every scenario I could find.

MS/PhD and CCIE are 2 different things not even close to draw a comparison.
They are just not comparable.

I read all the posts. Many are saying that they are different, but somewhat
still try connecting them all together at the end; I will drop a big bNOb

I also read that the Master degree is easier than a CCIE because you could
just get 60% to pass. Why would you go to grad school if your objective is
to get a 60% grade??? The whole idea of going to grad school is to go
beyond what was taught to you up to the Bachelor; you go to grad school to
bring your own contribution to what was done prior. I know the UK system
has something called btaught Master degreeb which is a little like the
Bachelor format for people who just want a Master degree for the sake of
it. As far as I know in many countries, the master degree is where you
start the real conditioning for research up to the PhD.

Coming back to the 60%, you cannot even get into a good Master program in
Europe or US universities if you had poor grades on your Bachelor. The same
applies to the Master degree; you can kiss any good PhD program goodbye if
you got a 60% average grades on your Master; you will never get accepted
unless you go for those bfor profitb colleges/universities that you have
in
the US, where you just pay the money and they deliver a Master or PhD
degree after few months/yearb&

Now for the CCIE, the essence itself is great; I was somehow forced to
learn more while going through the blueprint. Did I master a
topic/technology to the point of bringing my contribution to the way it
works b meaning changing/adding something to the current state ? The answer
is bnob; that is not the intended format and objective; the exam is not
asking you to come up with or do something to improve EIGRP or anything
elseb&

I just said bthe CCIE, the essence itself is greatb which bring me to
this
note. I think the vendor has done more to give the CCIE another direction,
which is the one toward money makingb& It is a big business for the vendor
and all other workbooks/bootcamps vendors around it.

I could actually compare the other side of the CCIE to the bexecutive
MBAb
that some schools came up with charging up to $150K/year for the programb&
Not about the knowledge, but the moneyb&

Travis, go to grad school for a good reason, otherwise you will hate it
while there. If you want to make money like most people seams to claim here
then stop at the Bachelor and go for the CCIE b there is another hot email
string/topic outlining just that right now. Ibm sure you will all agreed
with me that we are talking so much about money while discussing CCIE that
the 2 words will soon be synonym; maybe they already areb& CCIE can barely
keep its spot as it is being pushed away by money.

I would end with what E
ukasz Bromirski said in a different topic.

"The problem with a CCIE certification - pretty obvious one - is that more
and more people pass it using bootcamps and workbooks as and cheat sheet.
The direction to make it harder, complex and with more number ... the true
virtue of CCIE is to make it all at least look simple, and remove
complexity where it's possible."

E
ukasz, I did use workbooks to prepare for the exam. I still donbt know
if
I could have made it without the workbooks. Are you saying that this could
be done without workbooks? If the answer is yes, then maybe the way the
exam is presented today should be changed. From my point of view the whole
exam came down to how fast you could complete the configuration and verify
them. I donbt see how I could have done that without practicing over and
over with workbooks.

The above brings me to the very early CCIEs; I donbt know the format of
their exams, but I always find myself wondering how they did it without
everything available today like workbooks and othersb& I could just type in
bOSPFb and bNSSAb in Google or click 3 times on my DocCD link and
read
everything I want on the topicb& Maybe going back to that format will keep
us free from all the distractions around the CCIE and bring some sanityb&

NYA BAWEU

On Sun, Mar 4, 2012 at 8:00 PM, Narbik Kocharians <narbikk_at_gmail.com> wrote:

> You are very correct.
>
>
> Besides age and experience.
>
> Remember how Eskimos eat a whale, one bite at a time.
>
>
>
> The same formula should work here as well, one technology, one piece, one
> protocol one-step at a time. This way, you will do few protocol specific
> labs a day and it should NOT take you longer than 2 hours. You study 2
> hours a day; this could be at work or late at night when everyone is
> sleeping.
>
> DO NOT DO OR PURCHASE MOCK labs, unless they are troubleshooting Mock labs.
>
>
>
> This way, you will NOT get frustrated, you will learn every hair within
> every protocol, and as a result of this you will learn MORE and it will
> stay with you longer.
>
>
>
> As far as mock labs, you should do a maximum of 5, and those 5 mock labs
> should be done 5 days before your lab, the 6th day is the actual lab. These
> 5 mock labs should be written for 9 hours and they should be VERY HARD but
> relevant, and you should try to complete them in 7 hours. Basically you
> wake up 6 AM, and 7:45 AM you should start on Lab 1, stop around 12:00 for
> a lunch break (30 min), and do a hard stop at 4:45 PM. You repeat the same
> process for labs 2, 3, 4 and 5.
>
> This is how I use to condition myself for a big sporting event. This is how
> runners, boxers prepare themselves. Try it, it does work.
>
>
> On Sun, Mar 4, 2012 at 3:43 PM, Alessandro Braga <sandro.unix_at_gmail.com
> >wrote:
>
> > Narbik,
> >
> > I totally agree with you, but your view is of a man with more life/work
> > experience. I think that today the most CCIE candidates are young guys
> like
> > 20-35 years.
> > for us the patience is a fight, believe me.
> >
> > My family was punished a lot of times in the last track :( and I'm
> > planning to go the next track like Narbik said, a little more quiet.
> >
> > Narbik, give me the 'magic formula' for this :p
> >
> >
> > BRs,
> >
> >
> > 2012/3/4 Roy Khan <roykhan123_at_hotmail.com>
> >
> >> Agreed with Narbaik
> >>
> >>
> >> > Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 21:43:42 -0800
> >> > Subject: Re: OT: CCIE != PhD
> >> > From: narbikk_at_gmail.com
> >> > To: engrenny_at_hotmail.com
> >> > CC: don.rajaratne_at_gmail.com; aaron1_at_gvtc.com; negron.paul_at_gmail.com;
> >> pbhatkoti_at_gmail.com; niedentj_at_hotmail.com; ccielab_at_groupstudy.com
> >> >
> >> > Paul and Aaron,
> >> >
> >> > I am totally with you both.
> >> >
> >> > People are doing it the wrong way, getting CCIE or a degree should NOT
> >> > affect your family the wrong way, you should NOT take away from your
> >> family
> >> > just to do a lab or read an article. If this is you, YOU ARE DOING IT
> >> WRONG.
> >> >
> >> > If you study an hour or two a day, you will get there without any
> >> headache
> >> > or heartache. The problem with most of us is that we want it TODAY, we
> >> > don't have any patience, some of us think that life is going to end
> >> > tomorrow, and if we don't get it today, the certification is not going
> >> to
> >> > be the same.
> >> >
> >> > Cisco has been there for a long time and they will be there for years
> to
> >> > come, so take your time and study couple of hours a day and you will
> get
> >> > there when you are totally ready.
> >> >
> >> > I have 4 kids, and i used to LOVE sports, but once i decided to get my
> >> > CCIE, the only thing that suffered was the time i was spending in Gym
> >> and
> >> > NOT when i was with my family.
> >> >
> >> > On Sat, Mar 3, 2012 at 9:27 PM, OLUSEGUN DADA <engrenny_at_hotmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > No matter how understanding she is, there is always going to be a
> >> > > different because a woman will always be a woman
> >> > >
> >> > > Regards
> >> > > Dada Olusegun
> >> > > CCIE#32395, CEH, JNCIS
> >> > >
> >> > > Sent from my BlackBerry. Smartphone, from Etisalat.
> >> > >
> >> > > -----Original Message-----
> >> > > From: Don Rajaratne <don.rajaratne_at_gmail.com>
> >> > > Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2012 04:48:54
> >> > > To: <aaron1_at_gvtc.com>; <negron.paul_at_gmail.com>; <
> pbhatkoti_at_gmail.com>;
> >> <
> >> > > niedentj_at_hotmail.com>
> >> > > Cc: <ccielab_at_groupstudy.com>
> >> > > Subject: Re: OT: CCIE != PhD
> >> > >
> >> > > As long as if you have an understanding wife, that's all it matters.
> >> > >
> >> > > Don.
> >> > > Sent from my BlackBerry.
> >> > >
> >> > > -----Original Message-----
> >> > > From: "Aaron" <aaron1_at_gvtc.com>
> >> > > Sender: nobody_at_groupstudy.com
> >> > > Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 22:38:03
> >> > > To: 'Paul Negron'<negron.paul_at_gmail.com>; 'Radioactive Frog'<
> >> > > pbhatkoti_at_gmail.com>; 'Travis Niedens'<niedentj_at_hotmail.com>
> >> > > Reply-To: "Aaron" <aaron1_at_gvtc.com>
> >> > > Cc: <ccielab_at_groupstudy.com>
> >> > > Subject: RE: OT: CCIE != PhD
> >> > >
> >> > > Since Paul brought family into the discussion...allow me to expound
> on
> >> that
> >> > > my feelings...
> >> > >
> >> > > I was single (unmarried) when I attained a Bachelors in Computer
> >> Science
> >> > > while holding a full time active career in the US Marines as a Staff
> >> > > Sergeant.
> >> > >
> >> > > I'm now married with 7 children and trying to get a CCIE. (I've also
> >> heard
> >> > > college is very hard when you have a wife and children also)
> >> > >
> >> > > I think this is one of the most difficult things I've ever
> >> done....try to
> >> > > get a CCIE while being a full time Sr Net Eng, father and husband...
> >> > >
> >> > > I think it would be one thing to attain the CCIE... but it's a
> whooole
> >> > > other
> >> > > thing to cross the finish line of CCIE and have my wife and children
> >> proud
> >> > > and happy for me, not resenting the CCIE that dad/hubby neglected
> them
> >> > > while
> >> > > pursuing. Paul thanks for the reminder....I needed it.
> >> > >
> >> > > I DO NOT want a CCIE if it means I have to be at odds with my wife,
> >> > > children
> >> > > and others over it.
> >> > >
> >> > > After all, when you are old and grey and perhaps breathing your last
> >> > > breath,
> >> > > do you want to be surrounded at your bed side by a bunch of GS'ers!!
> >> Ha,
> >> no
> >> > > of course not....you want the ones who you love (your family) around
> >> > > you....
> >> > > I'll end with that.
> >> > >
> >> > > Aaron
> >> > >
> >> > > -----Original Message-----
> >> > > From: nobody_at_groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody_at_groupstudy.com] On
> Behalf
> >> Of
> >> > > Paul
> >> > > Negron
> >> > > Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2012 8:49 PM
> >> > > To: Radioactive Frog; Travis Niedens
> >> > > Cc: ccielab_at_groupstudy.com
> >> > > Subject: Re: OT: CCIE != PhD
> >> > >
> >> > > I've always said. You need to be able to take of your family at the
> >> end
> >> of
> >> > > the day.Hopefully you can help take care of others as well.
> Everything
> >> else
> >> > > is just a stroke job for your ego.
> >> > >
> >> > > Paul
> >> > > --
> >> > > Paul Negron
> >> > > CCIE# 14856 CCSI# 22752
> >> > > Senior Technical Instructor
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > > From: Radioactive Frog <pbhatkoti_at_gmail.com>
> >> > > > Reply-To: Radioactive Frog <pbhatkoti_at_gmail.com>
> >> > > > Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2012 13:24:07 +1100
> >> > > > To: Travis Niedens <niedentj_at_hotmail.com>
> >> > > > Cc: <ccielab_at_groupstudy.com>
> >> > > > Subject: Re: OT: CCIE != PhD
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Completely agreed with Travis.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Two completely different things.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > With CCIE we're not inventing or doing anything new but just like
> a
> >> Chef
> >> > > > show on the Tele.
> >> > > > Who can cook, and how accurate it is.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > I guess at the end what really count is that your interest.
> >> > > > The matter of the fact is that if you're really clever and have
> >> great
> >> > > idea
> >> > > > to develop something, you should not do CCIE at all - go for PhD.
> >> (there
> >> > > > would be an arguments that why do PhD if you've great ideas,
> >> inventive
> >> > > > mind).
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > > However, if you're just doing a PhD without any great invention in
> >> mind
> >> > > > (which most people do), then one would be better off with doing
> >> CCIE.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Remember CCIE pays more than PhD ::)
> >> > > >
> >> > > > ccAr is definitely interesting.
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > > On Sat, Mar 3, 2012 at 3:46 PM, Travis Niedens <
> >> niedentj_at_hotmail.com>
> >> > > wrote:
> >> > > >
> >> > > >> I usually don't speak out about this stuff however I have noticed
> >> way
> >> > > too
> >> > > >> many people comparing the CCIE to the PhD and quite frankly I
> find
> >> that
> >> > > an
> >> > > >> absurd comparison. Anyone who has worked on their Masters and PhD
> >> can
> >> > > >> attest to the rigor that is required for the PhD as well as the
> >> process
> >> > > >> involved and final goals. If you look at the CCIE it is a test
> that
> >> > > >> encompasses:
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> - A CISCO specific technology line
> >> > > >> - Each test set has a fixed set of possible exams that are
> updated
> >> and
> >> > > >> swapped time to time to avoid cheating
> >> > > >> - Only requires configuration and troubleshooting - again, heavy
> >> Cisco
> >> > > >> specific focus
> >> > > >> - Graded by a system, confirmed by a human
> >> > > >> - 8 hours to prove that you have absorbed enough knowledge to
> >> configure
> >> > > >> things the Cisco way
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> The PhD is not this at all, in fact the PhD's main goal is for
> the
> >> > > student
> >> > > >> to learn enough about their area of interest so they can build a
> >> thesis,
> >> > > go
> >> > > >> out and scientifically research it and then DEFEND it and add to
> >> the
> >> > > body
> >> > > >> of human knowledge. While we all spend thousands of dollars,
> >> hundreds
> >> if
> >> > > >> not thousands of hours in labs / working and hours weekly
> >> responding
> >> to
> >> > > GS,
> >> > > >> with the CCIE we are not creating anything new for the body of
> >> human
> >> > > >> knowledge. I don't say this lightly as I know the vendors work
> >> hard on
> >> > > >> their materials however if you look at two of them side by side
> you
> >> will
> >> > > >> see many of the same configurations as that's the way Cisco
> >> programmed
> >> > > the
> >> > > >> IOS parser to handle the magic.
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> There are key milestones in the PhD process / journey including:
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> - Research classes
> >> > > >> - Academic writing classes
> >> > > >> - Colloquia
> >> > > >> - Comps
> >> > > >> - Thesis Research
> >> > > >> - Thesis Dissertation
> >> > > >> - Thesis Defense
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> Keep in mind that most universities have a 2 times and then out
> >> policy
> >> -
> >> > > >> thus meaning if you fail your comps or defense twice, you are
> out.
> >> You
> >> > > have
> >> > > >> just spent 10's of thousands of dollars and years on your thesis
> >> and
> >> > > >> education and failed.
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> In comparison, Cisco allows you to take the CCIE over and over
> and
> >> over
> >> > > >> and requires no original contribution to the field of
> >> > > >> networking/security/voice/SP, etc. This is just to gain revenue
> and
> >> > > ensure
> >> > > >> Cisco skilled workers in IT worldwide.
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> As I see it, the closest thing to a PhD Cisco has now is the
> CCAr.
> >> While
> >> > > >> Cisco's path to making and expanding this program has been rather
> >> > > lengthy
> >> > > >> and slow, I do hope that they continue to push it. The Ar cannot
> be
> >> > > >> accomplished by just any testking and requires a defense. In
> >> addition
> >> it
> >> > > >> requires an initial response to questions, similar to comps, and
> >> they
> >> > > MUST
> >> > > >> be acceptable before moving on to the panel phase.
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> So here's how I see it:
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> Associates (2 years) - CCxA *
> >> > > >> Bachelors (4 years) - CCxP *
> >> > > >> Masters (6 years) - CCIE *
> >> > > >> PhD (8+ years) - CCAr
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> Good luck in your studies!
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> Travis
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >>
> >> _______________________________________________________________________
> >> > > >> Subscription information may be found at:
> >> > > >> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> _______________________________________________________________________
> >> > > > Subscription information may be found at:
> >> > > > http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> _______________________________________________________________________
> >> > > Subscription information may be found at:
> >> > > http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> _______________________________________________________________________
> >> > > Subscription information may be found at:
> >> > > http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> _______________________________________________________________________
> >> > > Subscription information may be found at:
> >> > > http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> _______________________________________________________________________
> >> > > Subscription information may be found at:
> >> > > http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > *Narbik Kocharians
> >> > *CCSI#30832, CCIE# 12410 (R&S, SP, Security)
> >> > *www.MicronicsTraining.com* <http://www.micronicstraining.com/>
> >> > Sr. Technical Instructor
> >> > YES! We take Cisco Learning Credits!
> >> > Training & Remote Racks available
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
> >> >
> >> >
> _______________________________________________________________________
> >> > Subscription information may be found at:
> >> > http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> >>
> >>
> >> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________________________________
> >> Subscription information may be found at:
> >> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Alessandro Braga
> > CCIE #30939
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> *Narbik Kocharians
> *CCSI#30832, CCIE# 12410 (R&S, SP, Security)
> *www.MicronicsTraining.com* <http://www.micronicstraining.com/>
> Sr. Technical Instructor
> YES! We take Cisco Learning Credits!
> Training & Remote Racks available
>
>
> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
>
> _______________________________________________________________________
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Received on Tue Mar 06 2012 - 17:21:40 ART