Re: Company want CCIE, but they don't support my efforts

I have to agree with the rest. I've always put the job first and the cert a distant 2nd because it was never valued by my employers. It's worth it to your careers to go somewhere that appreciates it and will pay. I've only recently found someplace that does value it, and is willing to contribute time and money (time being the most critical).

On Sep 12, 2011, at 6:14 PM, marc edwards <renorider_at_gmail.com> wrote:

> So let me interject one thought to the discussion. I recently switched jobs
> because of this reason... There was a gross undervaluing of my efforts. I
> was lucky to get many offers from both Cisco, a large partner services re
> seller, and a non services partner who needed a solid network engineer. We
> all know what Cisco will offer. 3 free tests out of the gate and they were
> ready to reimburse me and set up training program to continue R & S also
> moving into data center technologies. The partner also offered paid training
> and reimbursement. The latter offered the most money and supports me by
> supplying rack rental time. Training for the non service pertner was
> presented as job specific mostly security, load balancing focused and not
> specific to the R & S pursuit but pertinent to day to day role and upcoming
> projects.
>
> I ended up taking the latter because they offered the most money... When it
> comes down to it, at any of these jobs, I couldn't get away with
> not fulfilling my priorities/ daily requests because I had to study on the
> clock. There is a balance with this that has to come after work. I see it
> like home work similar to what I have done in high school, college, and for
> other certs.
>
> I do feel that I am supported now. I do feel encouraged. I know that if my
> next attmept busts, work will sponsor another chance. They see how it helps
> speed mean time to resolution of incidents but they are also focussing on
> more than just Cisco. I do have to say that don't lose focus of what it is
> you do. We are not getting paid to study. We get paid to fix, enhance, and
> engineer better networks/systems etc.
>
> I agree completely that if you are unhappy with a job and there is no
> support. Time to move on but don't jump ship just becuase you are not
> getting exactly what you want. Especially if the pay is pretty good. My two
> cents.
>
> Marc
>
> On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 3:51 PM, Jay McMickle <jay.mcmickle_at_yahoo.com>wrote:
>
>> Well said, Joe!
>>
>> Regards,
>> Jay McMickle- CCNP,CCSP,CCDP
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> http://mycciepursuit.wordpress.com
>>
>>
>> On Sep 12, 2011, at 11:40 AM, Joe Astorino <joeastorino1982_at_gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I was in a similar situation. I will offer some advice, but remember it
>> is
>>> worth what you paid for it : ) In 2008 I began studying hardcore for my
>> lab
>>> exam. I went to my employer and put up a very reasonable argument as to
>> why
>>> they would benefit from a CCIE on staff, and asked that they back me
>>> financially in that endeavor. I even wrote a page long letter to the CIO
>>> explaining the benefits and outlining the costs involved, etc.
>>>
>>> They essentially said "we want you focused on doing your job, not
>> studying.
>>> A CCNP is all we need, and we won't pay for a CCIE." At that point I
>>> realized something important to me -- The company did not value
>> technology
>>> and they did not value expertise in that area. If I did get my CCIE
>> working
>>> there, it sure would not come with a raise. They also knew I would
>> probably
>>> leave and go make more $ somewhere else.
>>>
>>> As soon as they said "that's nice but do it on your own time" I decided
>> to
>>> start looking for another job. I set out to find a place that valued
>>> technology and valued high end certifications like the CCIE. Within a
>> few
>>> months I got an offer working as a contractor for Cisco, along with a
>> $25k
>>> increase....and I was still working on my CCIE.
>>>
>>> The point is this -- If they won't pay for it, they don't value it. Money
>>> talks. If they don't value what you are doing now, they won't value it
>> when
>>> you get the CCIE either. They will also know you are valuable and it
>>> wouldn't surprise me if they are already trying to figure out how to
>> replace
>>> you cheaper. Companies are ruthless. Look out for yourself, and start
>>> looking for a place that will support you in your dreams
>>>
>>> My 2 cents
>>>
>>> On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 11:19 AM, Radioactive Frog <pbhatkoti_at_gmail.com
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Job hunt is the answer- find a company that is willing to pay your exam
>>>> cost. To be able to get this, I think you need to offer these type of
>>>> company more than just the "regular" skill-set.
>>>> Not just the RnS but like Vmware, security and other skill set upfront.
>>>>
>>>> $20k is huge.. buy shares and in 6 months they might go up by 50% :)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 9:36 PM, Calin C. <calin_at_engineer.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for your opinion,
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't feel that it's mandatory to attend a bootcamp. The work
>>>> environment
>>>>> is pretty challenging and combined with my spare time practice will be
>> a
>>>>> pretty good hands-on support for my lab exam.
>>>>> The bootcamp came into discussion with my company as they inquire about
>>>> my
>>>>> ongoing preparation with CCIE.
>>>>> They didn't want to pay for my rack equipments (which I paid by my own)
>>>> so
>>>>> I've suggested them to pay for a bootcamp (the lower cost one, aprox.
>>>> 2.200
>>>>> euro).
>>>>>
>>>>> Reading your suggestions now, I took the decision to continue on my
>> own,
>>>>> with my own rack and I'll buy the workbooks from a ccie training
>> provider
>>>> (I
>>>>> don't want to give the name to start a flame discussion about which is
>>>>> best). I'll try the next 3 months to prepare hard and then if I'm not
>>>> happy
>>>>> with my progress I'll check for a bootcamp of 5 days (if there will be
>>>> any
>>>>> available in Europe, to reduce travel costs). I have no doubt that a
>>>>> bootcamp can add valuable know-how, but right now the above approach
>> fit
>>>>> best my needs and the costs are acceptable.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> Calin
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: farhan.anwar_at_gmail.com
>>>>>> Sent: 09/12/11 01:14 PM
>>>>>> To: shiran guez, Calin C.
>>>>>> Subject: Re: Company want CCIE, but they don't support my efforts
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Calin,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I did my CCIE by utilising online bootcamps and mock labs that are
>>>>> offered from many vendors. Save on the travelling and hotel costs, take
>>>> the
>>>>> online bootcamp from your home, if you feel you need it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> HTH,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Farhan Anwar
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sent from my BlackBerryB. smartphone from du
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From: shiran guez <shiranp3_at_gmail.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sender: nobody_at_groupstudy.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2011 12:43:03
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To: Calin C.<calin_at_engineer.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Reply-To: shiran guez <shiranp3_at_gmail.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cc: <daniel.dib_at_reaper.nu>; <ccielab_at_groupstudy.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: Company want CCIE, but they don't support my efforts
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 20K Euro is a lot of money, a boot-camp will speed your process to
>>>> become
>>>>> a
>>>>>>
>>>>>> CCIE but is it worth 20K I think it depends who need it and how fast
>>>> when
>>>>> a
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cisco Partner need a CCIE and he decide to promote one of his workers
>>>> he
>>>>>>
>>>>>> will send them to boot-camp because it is fast and he will get
>>>>>>
>>>>>> the investment back relativly fast, however if you personally doing it
>>>> I
>>>>> am
>>>>>>
>>>>>> not sure you are going to pay back your investment that fast.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have done my CCIE without boot-camp' in total including
>>>>>>
>>>>>> learning martial labs transatlantic flights 2 attempts and hotel's it
>>>>> cost
>>>>>>
>>>>>> me ~7000USD may be a little less.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> good luck
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 12:16 PM, Calin C. <calin_at_engineer.com>
>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hello Daniel,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "...but if
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> B the CCIE does nothing for them..."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Maybe I have to add some clarification. I'm being sold by my hiring
>>>>> company
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> as a consultant (or external partner) to other companies. Maybe I'm
>>>> not
>>>>> into
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> marketing stuff, but I think selling a CCIE worth more than selling a
>>>>> CCNP /
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> CCIP :)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So, event if they don't have a plan to go further on with Cisco
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> partnership, I think they will gain something from my increased
>>>>> knowledge.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks for reply!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Calin
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> From: daniel.dib_at_reaper.nu
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sent: 09/12/11 11:02 AM
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> To: ccielab_at_groupstudy.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Company want CCIE, but they don't support my efforts
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mon, 12 Sep 2011 04:09:08 -0400, Calin C. wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hello all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I have here an ethical problem, more than a technical one and I
>>>>> said
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> to ask you guys, maybe somebody can give me an advice.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Scenario is the following.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> For some time now I've been preparing for CCIE entirely on my own
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> costs (learning in my spare time, rack rental / equipment
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> acquisition,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> exam fee, accomodation, travel...).I sit to an exam a while ago
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> (about
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> a year) and fail. Came back home and start preparing again.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Now I want to sit to another lab in some months and I was
>>>> thinking
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> that maybe a bootcamp will help. I've ask around some friends and
>>>>> one
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> of them confirmed that he was in a bootcamp (company name not
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> important, location Germany) and costs were about 20.000 euro ( 3
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> weeks bootcamp, accomodation, travel...). This is a lot of money
>>>>> for
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> me and I was thinking to ask my company to support me. I've found
>>>> a
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> cheaper bootcamp (5 days around 2.200 euro + accomodation and
>>>>> travel,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> let's say up to 3.500 euro). I've presented the above numbers to
>>>> my
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> company and their answer was that they are willing to support me,
>>>>> but
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> only for the efective cost of the exam itself.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Maybe it's important to say that I have other certifications
>>>> (CCNP,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> CCIP, CXFS...) which are registered to my company for Cisco
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> partnership.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Finally we arrive to my issue:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I will keep on supporting my way to CCIE on my own costs (let's
>>>> say
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> that the 5 days bootcamp I could afford to pay by my own, or buy
>>>>> the
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> workbooks and practice on my own rack). I this case, my question
>>>>> is,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> if I will get a CCIE number, this will be automatically assigned
>>>> to
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> the company that I'm registered with? I've tried to explain to
>>>> them
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> that if this is the case, I would find it a little bit unfair to
>>>>> use
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> my number. The cost of the exam itself is nothing compared to the
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> rest
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> of efforts.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Please don't get me wrong. I'm fully satisfied with the company
>>>>> that
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm working on and I don't want to leave it. From financial and
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> social
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> perspective I'm happy with my position. I just want them to
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> understand
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> that nothing in life is free and CCIE comes with a costs that I
>>>>> have
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> to either recover somehow or they need to sponsor my efforts.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Any input will be appreciated (especially to my question about
>>>> CCIE
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> number - company relationship).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks for reading this long e-mail!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Calin
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> B Use the Partner Self Service tool available from the Partner
>>>> portal
>>>>> to
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> B see if you are assigned to a company. If you are then I suppose
>>>> the
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> CCIE
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> B will automatically be accredited to that company. Going to a 20k
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> B bootcamp seems like a waste, many people do pass the lab without
>>>> a
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> B bootcamp. If you want to go to one go for one that is for a week.
>>>>> That
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> B should be enough. Does your company need your CCIE to acheive a
>>>>> certain
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> B partner level? Maybe they don't and then they are not that
>>>>> interested
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> B paying for it? They should still pay you for the competence and
>>>>> skills
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> B you have achieved when becoming a CCIE through a higher salary
>>>> but
>>>>> if
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> B the CCIE does nothing for them partnerwise maybe they are
>>>> reluctant
>>>>> to
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> B pay costs for it. Just trying to get a grip of your situation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> B /Daniel
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________________________________
>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________________________________
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Subscription information may be found at:
>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Shiran Guez
>>>>>>
>>>>>> MCSE CCNP NCE1 JNCIA-ENT JNCIS-ENT CCIE #20572
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://cciep3.blogspot.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/cciep3
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://twitter.com/cciep3
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>> _______________________________________________________________________
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Subscription information may be found at:
>>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Joe Astorino
>>> CCIE #24347
>>> Blog: http://astorinonetworks.com
>>>
>>> "He not busy being born is busy dying" - Dylan
>>>
>>>
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>>>
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>>
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>
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>
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Received on Mon Sep 12 2011 - 18:46:50 ART