Re: OT - Cisco plans to restrict using IOS for dynamips!

My short reply "are you for real" was addressed to Lukas, not to Iwan.
The aggressive and insulting tone of the email is at least surprising.
Use of expressions like "people ... robbing Cisco", "spitting out
clueless remarks", "insult people or companies" and finally inviting
Iwan to "leave please" is disgraceful.

To those who work for Cisco: do not take comments about your employer
so personally. Despite the corporate BS that "employees are our most
important asset" you are only a number. It does not matter how
important you feel or how deeply you are involved with Cisco family.
At the end you are an asset that can be disposed like an old router
not compatible with IOS v15.

On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 11:43 PM, Tyson Scott <tscott_at_ipexpert.com> wrote:
> Tom,
>
> First I want to say that I have bet my entire career on Cisco and I enjoy
> Cisco as a company and I loved working for them in the past and maybe one
> day in the future I will work for them again. (I want to first say this as
> some of my following remarks are going to sound negative and I want it to be
> understood that it is only in regards specifically to this thread.)
>
> I have to agree with Iwan here and your tone and insults towards Iwan either
> show you haven't been in the computer industry very long or you don't see or
> don't agree with the big picture that many are arguing towards in this
> thread.
>
> Do I think it is right for people to infringe on License agreements, no I do
> not. If I have products in a production environment and I want to get
> support for it I feel it is very important to have valid licenses and people
> deserve to be paid for the hard work they put into development and support
> of a product.
>
> What Cisco has failed to do is create a good developer test bed environment
> for test engineers and people that are interested in propagating their
> products. It was already mentioned a while ago in this thread how harmful
> failing to do these things was for Novell in the past. How many people on
> this list still use Novell in their environment? For many years Novell
> still had better products than Microsoft but no one saw the need or lost
> interest due to many factors.
>
> Microsoft for example has the MSDN subscription that you can purchase as a
> developer and allows you to use as much of their products as you want in a
> lab environment without license infringement. I personally have an MSDN
> license for this reason. I own licenses for all my production equipment but
> whatever I am messing around with or testing, which is a lot, I use my MSDN
> subscription for. It isn't exactly free by any means but is realistic for
> Microsoft to charge for and allows me to legitimately use their products.
> And it allows me to continue to learn new information about their products
> and retain interest in continuing to use their product.
>
> Cisco has failed to initiate a similar program. There is nothing in place
> that allows people to legally use their software in a similar fashion. Yes
> you can use much of it for 90 days with a trial license but how many people
> on this list have finished a CCIE in 90 days? I know I have passed my SP
> and Security with studying for less than 30 days for each but that is not
> the norm. (Studying for 30 days does not mean I was first introduced to the
> technologies and learned it all in 30 days, that is just the time I spent
> studying for the test specifically.)
>
> Who on this list has implemented Dynamips into a production environment?
> The answer is going to be no one because it is not built for production. If
> that was the goal of these users then I can see the problems with it but it
> is not. In fact Cisco themselves have long seen the need for virtual
> testing thus IOU was created many years ago for Cisco employees. I used it
> extensively as an employee.
>
> Do I think this should all be for free no. I have spent between $100,000 to
> $150,000 of my own personally money buying Cisco equipment to study for
> tests and to be a good instructor to people that want to learn about Cisco.
> Much of it will probably be end of life before this change happens but much
> of it I could never afford to get licensing for it all as it is way beyond
> the scope of my pay grade. I have equipment similar to a multimillion
> dollar company but have the budget of a mom and pop shop.
>
> (This isn't at all speaking of the equipment that is used by IPexpert for
> rack rentals as that is not personally mine.) That is more money than
> almost anyone on this list so I have invested a great deal into the interest
> and the hopes that Cisco continues to be one of the most successful
> companies in the future as well.
>
> Cisco needs to implement some type of developer licensing that allows us all
> to continue to learn about their products and propagate their agenda or it
> will hurt them in the end. Creating a Cisco Developer license would be the
> right direction to take and I would gladly purchase a developer license as I
> think many others would as well.
>
> When I worked for Cisco in 2007 it was announced from John Chambers that his
> goal was to have 50,000 CCIE's by the end of 2010. Now either this goal was
> lost in translation to the Learning at Cisco team or there has been a change
> in the direction of the program. Or they just haven't worked everything out
> to fully bring that goal to fruition.
>
> I think for Cisco's program to continue to grow and allow for them to have a
> community of engineers that support and love their products they need to
> build a better developer/engineering community that is allowed to use their
> products under some type of developer subscription. I think they would find
> that many people would be happy to pay to have that right but not doing this
> has lead to the current situation. But right now you have a community of
> engineers that want to develop their understanding of a product and
> contribute to Cisco's end goals being cut at the knees for doing so. In my
> opinion that is a very strange relationship.
>
> In nature there is always a symbiotic relationship between predators and
> animals that help them. Like sharks have a symbiotic relationship with the
> fish remora. The remora help to clean the shark of parasites and keep them
> clean and thus the sharks do not eat them.
>
> In my opinion the CCIE community is much like the remora to Cisco. You
> don't eat the fish that keep you healthy ;)
>
> Adding another example I will go back to the time I worked at Cisco. I
> remember a big contract that we gave millions of dollars worth of equipment
> to for pennies just to earn the bigger contracts that we were after. Did it
> pay for us in the end? Yes it did.
>
> In the same way having a community of the top engineers continuing to be
> comfortable and knowledgeable about Cisco's equipment in the end is going to
> be the better pay off for Cisco, at least in my opinion, then cutting off a
> large part of the community due to their economic circumstances or lack of
> availability to equipment because of not being lucky enough to work for the
> right company at the time.
>
> Regards,
>
> Tyson Scott - CCIE #13513 R&S, Security, and SP
> Technical Instructor - IPexpert, Inc.
> Mailto: tscott_at_ipexpert.com
> Telephone: +1.810.326.1444, ext. 208
> Live Assistance, Please visit: www.ipexpert.com/chat
> eFax: +1.810.454.0130
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nobody_at_groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody_at_groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of Tom
> Solski
> Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 8:36 PM
> To: groupstudy
> Subject: RE: OT - Cisco plans to restrict using IOS for dynamips!
>
> Are you for real ?
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> On 2010-02-07 17:34, Iwan Hoogendoorn wrote:
>> If this goed trough ,... this is just more proof the whole
>> certification track stuff can be 1 big commercial pile ...
>>
>> I mean ... why be so greedy ...?
>
> It is already present on some of the platforms and will be present
> on new ones. Calling a vendor 'greedy' when it is robbed by people not
> paying for licenses seems quite a remark. It doesn't hurt people using
> normal products, and it would be really a story for Cisco to change
> it's multibillion software development path and system just because
> 'there's dynamips!'. C'mon...
>
> And when CCIE SP moves to - for example - IOS-XR, that's available for
> CRS-1, 12k and ASR9k, will you call again Cisco 'greedy'? Because it
> would cost a lot to build yourself a home lab out of them?
>
> Think for a moment before spitting out clueless remarks and insult
> people or companies. If it doesn't go through the 'wait 30 seconds and
> read what I wrote' test, it is not worth sending. And if You don't
> look at a CCIE being worth something for you, skip it please. Nobody
> forces you to pass it.
>
> --
> "Everything will be okay in the end. | #ukasz Bromirski
> If it's not okay, it's not the end. | http://lukasz.bromirski.net
>
>
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Received on Mon Feb 08 2010 - 12:59:56 ART