Re: CCIE SP Changes

Scott,
:-) in my neck of the woods we get to see an even better mix. Cisco
Juniper and Huawei. There is no way for them to test a multivendor
core without acknowledging who their biggest comptetitors are. That I
don't see them testing unless they do the usual 'pretend you are not
connecting to cisco'. Unfortunately/or fortunately for most African
and I suspect some parts of Europe, some chinese vendors are making
fast inroads at the core. having worked on most of them, id say they
all do a pretty decent job...

I think the focus (by cisco) should be on technologies and how their
boxes deliver them, how they deliver that certification might matter
but not really make a difference to the certification process...

and yes changes to the SP track were long overdue ...

JGitau

On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 11:30 PM, Scott Morris <smorris_at_ine.com> wrote:
> Actually many good points made in here... And that's been one of those
> debates for a long time in SPs who have traditionally been
> anti-certification and pro-experience (hence Marko's highly entertaining
> posit about cardio-thoracic surgeons earlier...
>
> But the funny thing is that as a technology, MPLS works pretty much the
> same on a 3725 as it does on a GSR. In fact, it works pretty much the
> same on a 3725 as it does on a Juniper T1600. You either get it or you
> don't.
>
> If you want to test people on trying to figure out how to upgrade code
> on a line card of a GSR (which the router very nicely TELLS you how to
> do anyway), then sure, go for it. But otherwise, you're testing
> features not technologies.
>
> Personally, if someone were going to do it right, they would come up
> with an Expert SP certification that contained BOTH Cisco and Juniper
> equipment and you had to figure out how to make things work! THAT's
> more of a pain that many other things that may get added in there. :)
>
> Anyway, once you get to working on a live environment, you'll have lots
> of details to fill in. I don't care which track we are talking about.
> None are perfect, even the new R&S. Because certain realities often
> differ from the testing environment. Someone either knows how to adapt
> or they do not. And if you can't. Well... Bummer that one. But that
> same logic holds true about how many enterprises have 6500's and it's
> not on the R&S exam. *shrug*
>
> Who cares. Whatever changes come, adapt and overcome. Spend too much
> time worrying about it and all you'll have to show for it is ulcers.
> And doctor's bills. And more ulcers from worrying about whether your
> doctor had a C average or an A average. :) We either know things or we
> don't. That which we don't know, we either figure out or we don't. The
> market will move on and we will either be a part of it or we won't.
> There's personal stake in here too, never forget that!
>
> My two cents. (or 1.3 Euros that I still have left from Amsterdam!)
>
>
>
>
> *Scott Morris*, CCIE/x4/ (R&S/ISP-Dial/Security/Service Provider) #4713,
>
> JNCIE-M #153, JNCIS-ER, CISSP, et al.
>
> JNCI-M, JNCI-ER
>
> evil_at_ine.com
>
>
> Internetwork Expert, Inc.
>
> http://www.InternetworkExpert.com
>
> Toll Free: 877-224-8987
>
> Outside US: 775-826-4344
>
>
> Knowledge is power.
>
> Power corrupts.
>
> Study hard and be Eeeeviiiil......
>
>
>
>
>
> Narbik Kocharians wrote:
>> I will be very surprised if Cisco adds CRSs and 7600s to the rack or KILL
>> the cert all together, but then again i have been surprised before.......for
>> few features here and there they will NOT kill the cert by adding 12K or
>> CRSs. If you go based on that philosophy, the R&S track is pretty bad as
>> well, who uses 3560s as their core? No matter where you go these days you
>> are going to see 6500s, 4948s, 3750s, VSS and from time to time 4500s, you
>> don't see them in the lab do you? They don t cost that much to Cisco but
>> they are NOT in the lab.
>>
>>
>>
>> I can see them adding more 7200s, 1000s and may be god forbid ONE 7600
>> (Which i doubt), BUT i do not see them adding anything else, what would it
>> buys them? When you talk to people at Cisco you quickly realize that these
>> people understand that for the cert to work, people need to have the ability
>> to purchase the equipment, could you imagine if they emulate a TRUE provider
>> environment? Will IPexpert have the equipment to train the SP track? If so,
>> how many racks are they going to have? Forget IPexpert, who will have SP
>> racks? NOT me for sure. Unless Cisco puts up bunch of SP racks and rents
>> them to public for what we pay for a regular R&S rack.
>>
>>
>>
>> BTW, the cost of 7600s is NOT dirt cheap for Cisco, routers are routers, and
>> one department will charge the other, they need *to justify it*, just look
>> at the current R&S racks that are provided by Cisco for the 360 program,
>> there are ONLY 32 of them, they are going to add more, but its NOT that
>> cheap or that easy when you have to justify it from the business
>> perspective.
>>
>>
>>
>> There are typically two different departments in the Provider network, the
>> PE/CE Eng. and the Core Eng. I think the current track is not missing that
>> much if any when it comes to PE/CE Eng. Now for the core they are missing
>> some stuff but it is NOT that big that a CCIE SP can't handle. I know the
>> next response will have a list of things that an SP CCIE did not have an
>> exposure to, but you always learn, you know enough to pick up what you have
>> not been exposed to.
>>
>> Let's NOT forget that normally in the core no matter where you go you
>> see Juniper as well. A CCIE SP will have to learn lots of hardware, BUT when
>> it comes to features, he/she will pick it up in no time. Another thing you
>> need to remember is that no matter how many CCIEs you have and no matter
>> what they do to the track, you still have to learn what the company that
>> just employed you has and what they do and how they do it and the reasons
>> why..
>>
>>
>>
>> But again, we are all guessing and assuming here.
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 10:35 AM, <nortic_at_hackermail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Marko, you can not lead if you don't want anyone to follow. Nine-tenths of
>>> education is encouragement - Anatole France
>>> Here is a theory: Inferior men boast about experience, Superior men boast
>>> about victories.
>>>
>>> There is no difference between running IOS on a P4 or a MPC7448. RFC's are
>>> CPU independent.
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Marko Milivojevic <markom_at_ipexpert.com>
>>> To: Roger Pfaeffli <rpf23543_at_gmail.com>
>>> Cc: Azar Ali <azarali1980_at_gmail.com>; Narbik Kocharians
>>>
>> <narbikk_at_gmail.com>;
>>
>>> Ashwin Iyer <ash.iyer_at_gmail.com>; Majonestx <majonestx_at_gmail.com>; Cisco
>>> certification <ccielab_at_groupstudy.com>
>>> Sent: Mon, Dec 7, 2009 3:31 pm
>>> Subject: Re: CCIE SP Changes
>>>
>>> I agree with all of the below, but it also comes down to "what does
>>> cert X represent".
>>>
>>> Do you really want to go to a certified cardio surgeon who has ... no
>>> experience, but hey, he's got Certified Heart Surgeon (20% or less
>>> chance of death)? No, me neither :-)
>>>
>>> --
>>> Marko Milivojevic - CCIE #18427
>>> Senior Technical Instructor - IPexpert
>>>
>>> Mailto: markom_at_ipexpert.com
>>> Telephone: +1.810.326.1444
>>> Live Assistance, Please visit: http://www.ipexpert.com/chat
>>> eFax: +1.810.454.0130
>>>
>>> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 13:25, Roger Pfaeffli <rpf23543_at_gmail.com
>>>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> Hi Marko, somehow you are right but I think you agree with me, that a Cert
>>>>
>> is
>>
>>> still a Cert and some of the things are not really relevant to livenetwork.
>>>
>> So
>>
>>> how you want to study for them? Even if you have many years of experience,
>>>
>> if
>>
>>> you have never used Cell Mode MPLS for example it makes it difficult to
>>>
>> study
>>
>>> for it, isn't it? Normally you will not find all the Cert stuff in real
>>> networks.
>>>
>>>> To me, a big part of studying means hands on and training, training,
>>>>
>> training.
>>
>>> I think that only with that way you can see how it works and figure out
>>>
>> issues
>>
>>> and weakness. You learn how to troubleshoot and so on.
>>>
>>>> If you are lucky (as I am), you have CRS's, 7600's, ASR's and all other
>>>>
>> big
>>
>>> and expensive boxes in your lab, but what if you don't? Do you think
>>>
>> someone
>>
>>> with no access to these products should not have the chance to make a SP?
>>>
>>>> There are different point of views and we could discuss a long time. I
>>>>
>>> definitely agree that the tracks should be very close to the real world but
>>> there should somehow be the possibility to make "real live training".
>>>
>>>> This is very good possible also with the SP track...
>>>>
>>>> So let's see what's coming in future for SP :o)
>>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>>
>>>> Roger
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----UrsprC<ngliche Nachricht-----
>>>> Von: Marko Milivojevic [mailto:markom_at_ipexpert.com]
>>>> Gesendet: Montag, 7. Dezember 2009 13:39
>>>> An: Roger Pfaeffli
>>>> Cc: Azar Ali; Narbik Kocharians; Ashwin Iyer; Majonestx; Cisco
>>>>
>> certification
>>
>>>> Betreff: Re: CCIE SP Changes
>>>>
>>>> I don't understand why everyone brings up "end of home lab" as
>>>> something that is relevant. It's a SERVICE PROVIDER expert cert - none
>>>> of us can have that kind of lab at home. If you CAN have it, there is
>>>> something seriously wrong with the track. As someone who has worked
>>>> for almost 15 years in SP arena, I should know :-).
>>>>
>>>> When CCIE came to market and became prestigious, it was equally
>>>> expensive to prepare for it as it would be with "new" SP track.
>>>> Personally, I see nothing seriously wrong with that. Certificate needs
>>>> to be relevant, difficult and require dedication, study and experience
>>>> to obtain. If certificate doesn't have those attributes, it's as
>>>> useful as MCP Windows 98.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Marko Milivojevic - CCIE #18427
>>>> Senior Technical Instructor - IPexpert
>>>>
>>>> Mailto: markom_at_ipexpert.com
>>>>
>>>> Telephone: +1.810.326.1444
>>>> Live Assistance, Please visit: http://www.ipexpert.com/chat
>>>> eFax: +1.810.454.0130
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 11:55, Roger Pfaeffli <rpf23543_at_gmail.com
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Well Marko, if you are right that would mean "the end" of home labs...
>>>>> ...at least for most of the students. I mean, imagine how much it would
>>>>>
>> cost
>>
>>> to make a home lab with 7600, ASR1000...
>>>
>>>>> I think even if you work with a SP, it could be difficult to get these
>>>>>
>> boxes
>>
>>> 1 year just for studying.
>>>
>>>>> I definitely agree, there should be some changes in the SP lab to bring
>>>>>
>> it up
>>
>>> to date, Cell Mode MPLS is (at least in my opinion) not really something we
>>> should learn as the "future technology". Additionally there is so much
>>>
>> L2VPN
>>
>>> stuff they should add.
>>>
>>>>> Apart from the fact that I hate the C7600 (evil QoS and other weird
>>>>>
>> stuff
>>
>>> depending on the Linecard), I hope that Cisco will change the blueprint in
>>>
>> that
>>
>>> way that it "can be affordable" to make a home-, or company lab.
>>>
>>>>> I would be very disappointed if they would shutdown this track...I mean,
>>>>>
>> they
>>
>>> should rather shutdown Storage than the SP track...but that's my personal
>>>
>> point
>>
>>> of view.
>>>
>>>>> Let's see what happens :o)
>>>>>
>>>>> Roger
>>>>>
>>>>> -----UrsprC<ngliche Nachricht-----
>>>>> Von: nobody_at_groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody_at_groupstudy.com] Im Auftrag von
>>>>>
>>> Marko Milivojevic
>>>
>>>>> Gesendet: Montag, 7. Dezember 2009 09:09
>>>>> An: Azar Ali
>>>>> Cc: Narbik Kocharians; Ashwin Iyer; Majonestx; Cisco certification
>>>>> Betreff: Re: CCIE SP Changes
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 07:50, Azar Ali <azarali1980_at_gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> As Narbik said, its impossible to add 7600/12000 series routers due to
>>>>>>
>> cost.
>>
>>>>>> So I don't expect too much change.B I'm curious to see whatB cisco can
>>>>>>
>> do
>>
>>> for
>>>
>>>>>> SP track apart from IOS,core knowledge,troubleshooting sections. Yeah,
>>>>>>
>> can
>>
>>>>>> could add a few more 7200's and probably some ISR's.
>>>>>>
>>>>> I beg to differ. 7600 for Cisco are dirt cheap and all they would need
>>>>> are two per location. Add to that a couple of ASR1000 boxes, combined
>>>>> with 3-4 ME-3400 switches and you got yourself a pretty decent SP
>>>>> setup, unlike the one we have today.
>>>>>
>>>>> IB4m certain we are going to see either change comparable to what I
>>>>> described, or a complete shutdown of the track. All other tracks at the
>>>>> moment make sense relevance and technology-wise. SP is very out of
>>>>> date.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Marko Milivojevic - CCIE #18427
>>>>> Senior Technical Instructor - IPexpert
>>>>>
>>>>> Mailto: markom_at_ipexpert.com
>>>>>
>>>>> Telephone: +1.810.326.1444
>>>>> Live Assistance, Please visit: http://www.ipexpert.com/chat
>>>>> eFax: +1.810.454.0130
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________________________________
>>>>> Subscription information may be found at:
>>>>> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
>>>>>
>>> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________________________________
>>> Subscription information may be found at:
>>>
>> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Narbik Kocharians
>> CCSI#30832, CCIE# 12410 (R&S, SP, Security)
>> www.MicronicsTraining.com
>> Sr. Technical Instructor
>> YES! We take Cisco Learning Credits!
>> Training And Remote Racks available
>>
>>
>> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
>>
>> _______________________________________________________________________
>> Subscription information may be found at:
>> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
>
>
> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
>
> _______________________________________________________________________
> Subscription information may be found at:
> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

-- 
**Gitau
Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net