Re: CCIE SP Changes

Actually many good points made in here... And that's been one of those
debates for a long time in SPs who have traditionally been
anti-certification and pro-experience (hence Marko's highly entertaining
posit about cardio-thoracic surgeons earlier...

But the funny thing is that as a technology, MPLS works pretty much the
same on a 3725 as it does on a GSR. In fact, it works pretty much the
same on a 3725 as it does on a Juniper T1600. You either get it or you
don't.

If you want to test people on trying to figure out how to upgrade code
on a line card of a GSR (which the router very nicely TELLS you how to
do anyway), then sure, go for it. But otherwise, you're testing
features not technologies.

Personally, if someone were going to do it right, they would come up
with an Expert SP certification that contained BOTH Cisco and Juniper
equipment and you had to figure out how to make things work! THAT's
more of a pain that many other things that may get added in there. :)

Anyway, once you get to working on a live environment, you'll have lots
of details to fill in. I don't care which track we are talking about.
None are perfect, even the new R&S. Because certain realities often
differ from the testing environment. Someone either knows how to adapt
or they do not. And if you can't. Well... Bummer that one. But that
same logic holds true about how many enterprises have 6500's and it's
not on the R&S exam. *shrug*

Who cares. Whatever changes come, adapt and overcome. Spend too much
time worrying about it and all you'll have to show for it is ulcers.
And doctor's bills. And more ulcers from worrying about whether your
doctor had a C average or an A average. :) We either know things or we
don't. That which we don't know, we either figure out or we don't. The
market will move on and we will either be a part of it or we won't.
There's personal stake in here too, never forget that!

My two cents. (or 1.3 Euros that I still have left from Amsterdam!)

*Scott Morris*, CCIE/x4/ (R&S/ISP-Dial/Security/Service Provider) #4713,

JNCIE-M #153, JNCIS-ER, CISSP, et al.

JNCI-M, JNCI-ER

evil_at_ine.com

Internetwork Expert, Inc.

http://www.InternetworkExpert.com

Toll Free: 877-224-8987

Outside US: 775-826-4344

Knowledge is power.

Power corrupts.

Study hard and be Eeeeviiiil......

Narbik Kocharians wrote:
> I will be very surprised if Cisco adds CRSs and 7600s to the rack or KILL
> the cert all together, but then again i have been surprised before.......for
> few features here and there they will NOT kill the cert by adding 12K or
> CRSs. If you go based on that philosophy, the R&S track is pretty bad as
> well, who uses 3560s as their core? No matter where you go these days you
> are going to see 6500s, 4948s, 3750s, VSS and from time to time 4500s, you
> don't see them in the lab do you? They dont cost that much to Cisco but
> they are NOT in the lab.
>
>
>
> I can see them adding more 7200s, 1000s and may be god forbid ONE 7600
> (Which i doubt), BUT i do not see them adding anything else, what would it
> buys them? When you talk to people at Cisco you quickly realize that these
> people understand that for the cert to work, people need to have the ability
> to purchase the equipment, could you imagine if they emulate a TRUE provider
> environment? Will IPexpert have the equipment to train the SP track? If so,
> how many racks are they going to have? Forget IPexpert, who will have SP
> racks? NOT me for sure. Unless Cisco puts up bunch of SP racks and rents
> them to public for what we pay for a regular R&S rack.
>
>
>
> BTW, the cost of 7600s is NOT dirt cheap for Cisco, routers are routers, and
> one department will charge the other, they need *to justify it*, just look
> at the current R&S racks that are provided by Cisco for the 360 program,
> there are ONLY 32 of them, they are going to add more, but its NOT that
> cheap or that easy when you have to justify it from the business
> perspective.
>
>
>
> There are typically two different departments in the Provider network, the
> PE/CE Eng. and the Core Eng. I think the current track is not missing that
> much if any when it comes to PE/CE Eng. Now for the core they are missing
> some stuff but it is NOT that big that a CCIE SP can't handle. I know the
> next response will have a list of things that an SP CCIE did not have an
> exposure to, but you always learn, you know enough to pick up what you have
> not been exposed to.
>
> Let's NOT forget that normally in the core no matter where you go you
> see Juniper as well. A CCIE SP will have to learn lots of hardware, BUT when
> it comes to features, he/she will pick it up in no time. Another thing you
> need to remember is that no matter how many CCIEs you have and no matter
> what they do to the track, you still have to learn what the company that
> just employed you has and what they do and how they do it and the reasons
> why..
>
>
>
> But again, we are all guessing and assuming here.
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 10:35 AM, <nortic_at_hackermail.com> wrote:
>
>
>> Marko, you can not lead if you don't want anyone to follow. Nine-tenths of
>> education is encouragement - Anatole France
>> Here is a theory: Inferior men boast about experience, Superior men boast
>> about victories.
>>
>> There is no difference between running IOS on a P4 or a MPC7448. RFC's are
>> CPU independent.
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Marko Milivojevic <markom_at_ipexpert.com>
>> To: Roger Pfaeffli <rpf23543_at_gmail.com>
>> Cc: Azar Ali <azarali1980_at_gmail.com>; Narbik Kocharians
>>
> <narbikk_at_gmail.com>;
>
>> Ashwin Iyer <ash.iyer_at_gmail.com>; Majonestx <majonestx_at_gmail.com>; Cisco
>> certification <ccielab_at_groupstudy.com>
>> Sent: Mon, Dec 7, 2009 3:31 pm
>> Subject: Re: CCIE SP Changes
>>
>> I agree with all of the below, but it also comes down to "what does
>> cert X represent".
>>
>> Do you really want to go to a certified cardio surgeon who has ... no
>> experience, but hey, he's got Certified Heart Surgeon (20% or less
>> chance of death)? No, me neither :-)
>>
>> --
>> Marko Milivojevic - CCIE #18427
>> Senior Technical Instructor - IPexpert
>>
>> Mailto: markom_at_ipexpert.com
>> Telephone: +1.810.326.1444
>> Live Assistance, Please visit: http://www.ipexpert.com/chat
>> eFax: +1.810.454.0130
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 13:25, Roger Pfaeffli <rpf23543_at_gmail.com
>>
>>> wrote:
>>> Hi Marko, somehow you are right but I think you agree with me, that a Cert
>>>
> is
>
>> still a Cert and some of the things are not really relevant to livenetwork.
>>
> So
>
>> how you want to study for them? Even if you have many years of experience,
>>
> if
>
>> you have never used Cell Mode MPLS for example it makes it difficult to
>>
> study
>
>> for it, isn't it? Normally you will not find all the Cert stuff in real
>> networks.
>>
>>> To me, a big part of studying means hands on and training, training,
>>>
> training.
>
>> I think that only with that way you can see how it works and figure out
>>
> issues
>
>> and weakness. You learn how to troubleshoot and so on.
>>
>>> If you are lucky (as I am), you have CRS's, 7600's, ASR's and all other
>>>
> big
>
>> and expensive boxes in your lab, but what if you don't? Do you think
>>
> someone
>
>> with no access to these products should not have the chance to make a SP?
>>
>>> There are different point of views and we could discuss a long time. I
>>>
>> definitely agree that the tracks should be very close to the real world but
>> there should somehow be the possibility to make "real live training".
>>
>>> This is very good possible also with the SP track...
>>>
>>> So let's see what's coming in future for SP :o)
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> Roger
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----UrsprC<ngliche Nachricht-----
>>> Von: Marko Milivojevic [mailto:markom_at_ipexpert.com]
>>> Gesendet: Montag, 7. Dezember 2009 13:39
>>> An: Roger Pfaeffli
>>> Cc: Azar Ali; Narbik Kocharians; Ashwin Iyer; Majonestx; Cisco
>>>
> certification
>
>>> Betreff: Re: CCIE SP Changes
>>>
>>> I don't understand why everyone brings up "end of home lab" as
>>> something that is relevant. It's a SERVICE PROVIDER expert cert - none
>>> of us can have that kind of lab at home. If you CAN have it, there is
>>> something seriously wrong with the track. As someone who has worked
>>> for almost 15 years in SP arena, I should know :-).
>>>
>>> When CCIE came to market and became prestigious, it was equally
>>> expensive to prepare for it as it would be with "new" SP track.
>>> Personally, I see nothing seriously wrong with that. Certificate needs
>>> to be relevant, difficult and require dedication, study and experience
>>> to obtain. If certificate doesn't have those attributes, it's as
>>> useful as MCP Windows 98.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Marko Milivojevic - CCIE #18427
>>> Senior Technical Instructor - IPexpert
>>>
>>> Mailto: markom_at_ipexpert.com
>>>
>>> Telephone: +1.810.326.1444
>>> Live Assistance, Please visit: http://www.ipexpert.com/chat
>>> eFax: +1.810.454.0130
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 11:55, Roger Pfaeffli <rpf23543_at_gmail.com
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Well Marko, if you are right that would mean "the end" of home labs...
>>>> ...at least for most of the students. I mean, imagine how much it would
>>>>
> cost
>
>> to make a home lab with 7600, ASR1000...
>>
>>>> I think even if you work with a SP, it could be difficult to get these
>>>>
> boxes
>
>> 1 year just for studying.
>>
>>>> I definitely agree, there should be some changes in the SP lab to bring
>>>>
> it up
>
>> to date, Cell Mode MPLS is (at least in my opinion) not really something we
>> should learn as the "future technology". Additionally there is so much
>>
> L2VPN
>
>> stuff they should add.
>>
>>>> Apart from the fact that I hate the C7600 (evil QoS and other weird
>>>>
> stuff
>
>> depending on the Linecard), I hope that Cisco will change the blueprint in
>>
> that
>
>> way that it "can be affordable" to make a home-, or company lab.
>>
>>>> I would be very disappointed if they would shutdown this track...I mean,
>>>>
> they
>
>> should rather shutdown Storage than the SP track...but that's my personal
>>
> point
>
>> of view.
>>
>>>> Let's see what happens :o)
>>>>
>>>> Roger
>>>>
>>>> -----UrsprC<ngliche Nachricht-----
>>>> Von: nobody_at_groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody_at_groupstudy.com] Im Auftrag von
>>>>
>> Marko Milivojevic
>>
>>>> Gesendet: Montag, 7. Dezember 2009 09:09
>>>> An: Azar Ali
>>>> Cc: Narbik Kocharians; Ashwin Iyer; Majonestx; Cisco certification
>>>> Betreff: Re: CCIE SP Changes
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 07:50, Azar Ali <azarali1980_at_gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> As Narbik said, its impossible to add 7600/12000 series routers due to
>>>>>
> cost.
>
>>>>> So I don't expect too much change.B I'm curious to see whatB cisco can
>>>>>
> do
>
>> for
>>
>>>>> SP track apart from IOS,core knowledge,troubleshooting sections. Yeah,
>>>>>
> can
>
>>>>> could add a few more 7200's and probably some ISR's.
>>>>>
>>>> I beg to differ. 7600 for Cisco are dirt cheap and all they would need
>>>> are two per location. Add to that a couple of ASR1000 boxes, combined
>>>> with 3-4 ME-3400 switches and you got yourself a pretty decent SP
>>>> setup, unlike the one we have today.
>>>>
>>>> IB4m certain we are going to see either change comparable to what I
>>>> described, or a complete shutdown of the track. All other tracks at the
>>>> moment make sense relevance and technology-wise. SP is very out of
>>>> date.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Marko Milivojevic - CCIE #18427
>>>> Senior Technical Instructor - IPexpert
>>>>
>>>> Mailto: markom_at_ipexpert.com
>>>>
>>>> Telephone: +1.810.326.1444
>>>> Live Assistance, Please visit: http://www.ipexpert.com/chat
>>>> eFax: +1.810.454.0130
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
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>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Narbik Kocharians
> CCSI#30832, CCIE# 12410 (R&S, SP, Security)
> www.MicronicsTraining.com
> Sr. Technical Instructor
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Received on Mon Dec 07 2009 - 15:30:15 ART