Re: Cisco Raises the Bar with Highest-Level IT Networking

hoa buddy, you are so going the wrong way here... :)

first... here we go again, I am speaking for myself, whatever crap I say
represents what I think and not my company. But now that we are talking
about my company, not sure what experience you had here, but on the 3 years
I have been here so far nobody was forced to use anything, people is free to
choose their resources. Now, your attitude towards learning, you are right
about that... you can have 20 years working for a company, if you are just
accomodated to your job, you will not evolve. It does not mean, however,
that you did not learn things. Experience, as far as I understand, comes
from experiencing things, living situations every single day, seeing
diffrent problems, similar problems, same problems, same solutions,
different solutions. Experience is living and learning, even if it does not
give you a certificate-on-a-frame at the end.

Why those people don't go and get certified? How the heck would I know?
Maybe because they feel they don't need, maybe their employers do not
require, maybe they have more important things to do, maybe it is not their
thing. Maybe they think they do not need to know things according to Cisco,
Juniper or whatsoever. Are there people with 10+, 20+ year of experience
that I would not hire? Of course! Does that mean that they do not have
experience? Not necessairly.

And for the mips and olives, hey, I do not have racks and equipments neither
for myself nor the company provides me with them. And I do use dynamips
myself too, a lot if you must know. But maybe you missed the point. What I
said is that I'd rather hire somebody with true experience in networking and
no cert than hiring a CCIE that never worked on a live network. And believe
me, they are out there.

Luan, do not take it personally. I have nothing against you or your company,
I just said that they might think different than you and they value
experience. And I think they are right.

On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 9:45 AM, Luan Nguyen <luan_at_netcraftsmen.net> wrote:

> It depends on how you look at "experience". You are lucky because of the
> 360 program. For a lot of people at your company, they are brainwashed
> with
> the down look on vendors' certifications... "I know alot of people that do
> not have ANY certification and that I'd hire or lookup for directions
> rather
> than a 7xCCIE/JNCIE - those are just 4 or 5 letter words...etc". This is
> because the company doesn't want to pay for people to learn. So that
> people
> don't have options available to them and just let the company dictate all
> the terms and conditions...that's what I believe now.
> I worked for the same company like you for 8 years. If I didn't learn
> stuff
> on my own, those 8 years wouldn't stack up against 1 year of consulting
> work! I was in "engineering". Which means I had 3-6 months for a project
> and 2 Cisco SE and one Juniper SE sat next to me almost every day of the
> week. If you don't have the right attitude toward learning, you wouldn't
> learn anything at all. Not to say all people there are like that...but just
> for the sake of experience: there are people with 10+ years of experience
> you don't want to hire.
> And why don't those people if so qualified, just go and get certified? Too
> good for certs? Resentment because of unfairness?
> Another point I'd like to make is your attitude toward 'mips and the like.
> You are, like I was, probably blessed with racks and racks of equipments
> hence become ignorance with that VMWare/Dynamips can do. I unlike you,
> rather go with folks grew up on 'mips and olives than institutionalized
> company people.
> At Chesapeake Netcraftsmen, we ask a lot because we have a reputation to
> keep. Going through the interview process with Terry, Pete Welcher, Marty
> Adkins...etc, your 10+ years of experience along with other criteria better
> stack up: they can tell the different between CCIEs and experience!
>
> Regards,
>
> ------------------------------------
> Luan Nguyen
> Chesapeake NetCraftsmen, LLC.
> [Web] http://www.netcraftsmen.net
> ------------------------------------
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nobody_at_groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody_at_groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
> Persio Pucci
> Sent: Monday, June 29, 2009 11:32 PM
> To: Cisco certification
> Subject: Re: Cisco Raises the Bar with Highest-Level IT Networking
> Certification: Cisco Certified Architect
>
> Experience is overrated? Funny 'cause Chesapeake asks for 10 years
> experience minimal on their Principal Engineering opening (which also
> requires BS degree and a CCIE)... go figure.
> I mean I am no caveman from the 8" disk era (just teasing you guys), but I
> think experience is highly valuable, and I would value experience over any
>
> certification from any vendor, just like somebody mentioned before, I know
> a
> lot of people that do not have ANY certification and that I'd hire or
> lookup
> for directions rather than a 7xCCIE/JNCIE that grew up on 'mips and
> olives...
>
> ...and before the rocks start clogging my inbox, hey, that's just me and
> the
> way I think.
>
> On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 12:02 AM, Luan Nguyen <luan_at_netcraftsmen.net>
> wrote:
>
> > Sigh. Don't mind me...I am just talking like Joseph :)
> > Where I am, CCIE still, like you said commands respect, and it's really
> > hard
> > to find one - let alone a qualified one.
> > Even with the CCDE and CCA, there are nothing more special about them
> than
> > CCIE. One could read a bunch of books and RFCs and could very well pass
> > both. So it might be easier than CCIE, and require a lot less
> time...more
> > time with our kids!
> > I always believe experience is somewhat overrated...if you don't make an
> > effort of better yourself, then even with 10 years + working in an office
> > somewhere, you would still have an ID of 10T.
> > CCIE is definitely very nice to have now and well in the future. If not,
> I
> > wouldn't be trying to get 4,5 of them now would I? :)
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > -------------------------------------
> > Luan Nguyen
> > Chesapeake NetCraftsmen, LLC.
> > [Web] http://www.netcraftsmen.net
> > -------------------------------------
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Gary Duncanson [mailto:gary.duncanson_at_googlemail.com]
> > Sent: Monday, June 29, 2009 3:48 PM
> > To: Luan Nguyen
> > Cc: ccielab_at_groupstudy.com
> > Subject: Re: Cisco Raises the Bar with Highest-Level IT Networking
> > Certification: Cisco Certified Architect
> >
> > Luan,
> >
> > There are a lot of CCIE's out there that's for sure, but if they really
> are
> > a dime a dozen then we should all just pack it in and do something much
> > more
> >
> > worthwhile like stop buying workbooks and spend more time with our kids.
> I
> > can only speak for my neck of the woods but the CCIE still commands
> respect
> > and no increase in numbers has devalued it. It's also more than enough to
> > work towards for just about anyone particularly if their plate is already
> > full at work and at home. The certificate has matured and it's often
> seen
> > as a nice to have with 10 years experience these days. I still think the
> > CCIE is ligit even if you haven't got that experience. Still an
> > accomplishment. I recall a luminary on this list in late 2007 saying we
> > would be 30000 by end of 2008. It hasn't happened.
> >
> > Regards
> > Gary
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Luan Nguyen" <luan_at_netcraftsmen.net>
> > To: "'Joe Astorino'" <jastorino_at_ipexpert.com>; "'Gary Duncanson'"
> > <gary.duncanson_at_googlemail.com>
> > Cc: <ccielab_at_groupstudy.com>
> > Sent: Monday, June 29, 2009 5:56 PM
> > Subject: RE: Cisco Raises the Bar with Highest-Level IT Networking
> > Certification: Cisco Certified Architect
> >
> >
> > > CCIEs are a dime a dozen. Really.
> > > So I think it's a great idea to have this CCA cert. Make it legit.
> Give
> > > people something to work toward.
> > > IMHO, the jump from CCDE to CCA is not that hard. I am sure all 7 of
> > > those
> > > current CCDE guys once applied should be able to get it easy.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > -----------------------------------
> > > Luan Nguyen
> > > Chesapeake NetCraftsmen, LLC.
> > > [Web] http://www.netcraftsmen.net
> > > -----------------------------------
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: nobody_at_groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody_at_groupstudy.com] On Behalf
> Of
> > > Joe
> > > Astorino
> > > Sent: Monday, June 29, 2009 12:40 PM
> > > To: 'Gary Duncanson'
> > > Cc: ccielab_at_groupstudy.com
> > > Subject: RE: Cisco Raises the Bar with Highest-Level IT Networking
> > > Certification: Cisco Certified Architect
> > >
> > > Yeah really...I don't want to sound too upset here, but I feel like I
> > just
> > > got kicked in the balls. How do the rest of you CCIEs out there feel
> > > about
> > > this announcement, since in my opinion we have all essentially been
> > > demoted?
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Joe Astorino
> > > CCIE #24347 (R&S)
> > > Sr. Support Engineer - IPexpert, Inc.
> > > URL: http://www.IPexpert.com <http://www.ipexpert.com/>
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Gary Duncanson [mailto:gary.duncanson_at_googlemail.com]
> > > Sent: Monday, June 29, 2009 12:38 PM
> > > To: Joe Astorino
> > > Cc: ccielab_at_groupstudy.com
> > > Subject: Re: Cisco Raises the Bar with Highest-Level IT Networking
> > > Certification: Cisco Certified Architect
> > >
> > > I give up too. I'm just way too busy working as a Network Designer to
> > keep
> > > up with all that stuff!
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Joe Astorino" <jastorino_at_ipexpert.com>
> > > To: "'Mike Kraus (mikraus)'" <mikraus_at_cisco.com>; <
> > ccielab_at_groupstudy.com>
> > > Sent: Monday, June 29, 2009 5:28 PM
> > > Subject: RE: Cisco Raises the Bar with Highest-Level IT Networking
> > > Certification: Cisco Certified Architect
> > >
> > >
> > >>I give up...
> > >>
> > >> Regards,
> > >>
> > >> Joe Astorino
> > >> CCIE #24347 (R&S)
> > >> Sr. Support Engineer - IPexpert, Inc.
> > >> URL: http://www.IPexpert.com <http://www.ipexpert.com/>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: nobody_at_groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody_at_groupstudy.com] On Behalf
> Of
> > >> Mike
> > >> Kraus (mikraus)
> > >> Sent: Monday, June 29, 2009 11:16 AM
> > >> To: ccielab_at_groupstudy.com
> > >> Subject: Cisco Raises the Bar with Highest-Level IT Networking
> > >> Certification: Cisco Certified Architect
> > >>
> > >> http://newsroom.cisco.com/dlls/2009/prod_062909.html
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
> > >>
> > >>
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Received on Tue Jun 30 2009 - 10:03:45 ART