Re: Open-Ended Questions in the CCIE Security Track

Hello Jimmy,

I don't think it's that much about money of the CCIE lab exams as more
about keeping the "field value" of the CCIE certification high enough.
Look at what happend with the MSCE certification 10 years ago.
everybody who could read a book could get an MSCE certification, but
that didn't mean they would know how NT4 worked and how the NT Domain
infrastructure, IIS, etc worked..

Microsoft has learned from that and changed the certification quite
dramatically. The same principle also applies for any other
certifications that are valued high. I would say that also the redhat
certifications, or other IT technology based certifications face the
same problems.

The Cisco CCIE certification is still valued quite highly with regards
to reputation, because of the Lab exam requirements. And if what Dan
said is true, then it is logical that Cisco is changing the lab exams,
as they should do, to maintain a certain level of difficultness to
maintain the value of the certification.

As tim also said, what's the point in spending thousands of dollars to
get the certification if there's no return on investment, or that the
investment is dropping because Cisco didn't take action. Look at it
from the investment perspective. You spend a lot of time and effort to
obtain that level of certifcation, which you can only maintain if you
stay in the networking business. If you get that level of
certification, you would belong to the top of networking infrastructure.
Would you still be investing time and money in it, if you would know
that cheaters manage to get that same certification without the same
effort, and thus reducing the value of that certification dramatically?

The problem with the written exam is, that there are a lot of
braindumps available. You can still do a braindump to get your written
examen. Cisco is actually also changing the written exam (starting
with R&S) that the form of questioning is changed from being able to
go back/forward, just only go forward after answering a question.

I think that Cisco looks at the market value the CCIE certification
and wants to keep that level high. The thing is, the written exam
covers a lot of topic, and as usual, the written exam is not created
by technical guys. However, the lab exam is created by technically
oriented guys, so I would expect the lab open questions to be very
technical on the gory detail as well.

One of the questions, that could trick you would be:
Q: A DMVPN Phase 3 is setup and communication between the spokes is
not working as expected. The first packet arrives (of the ping), but
the other packets are not arriving. What would be the cause?
A: ISAKMP authentication on phase 1

You won't be able to answer such a question based on theoretical
knowledge, but rather from experience in troubleshooting such designs.

Pieter-Jan

On 18 mei 2009, at 13:05, Jimmy wrote:

> Hi,Jan
>
> If cisco want filtered those easy CCIES, they can make a difficult
> questions
> in the written exam , why they don't ? because cisco can make money
> from the
> written exam.i think so.
>
>
> Jimmy.
>
>
> 2009/5/18, Pieter-Jan Nefkens <pjnefkens_at_nefkensadvies.nl>:
>>
>> All,
>>
>> I think that the open ended questions in the lab are there as extra
>> protection for those that think they can get a CCIE certification
>> in two or
>> three weeks time (or a month). There are several forums / blogs
>> where people
>> ask that question in that manner.
>>
>> They manage to get the written exam by doing a braindump and then
>> try to do
>> the lab exam. This has the result that a lot of persons fail the
>> lab exam,
>> with as a potential result, the labs might get easier, with as a
>> result of
>> that, the grading of CCIE becoming lower.
>>
>> So to protect the lab exam from persons that are attempting it and
>> thinking
>> that you can get a CCIE Lab exam by just having a braindump and not
>> the
>> experience, could be filtered by these open-ended questions..
>>
>> My guess is also that these open-ended questions are based on which
>> technology you should use where. And that is something that comes
>> from
>> practice and experience, not from a braindump. That's also why it's
>> an open
>> question....
>>
>> So actually, to include some open ended questions on the lab exam,
>> the
>> result could be that those "get-your-ccie-within-a-month-or-two)
>> might start
>> to rethink and therefore some lab seats might open up for those
>> that are
>> working towards that goal for a longer term
>>
>> Just my 2 cents
>>
>> Pieter-Jan Nefkens
>>
>> On 18 mei 2009, at 07:53, Casim wrote:
>>
>> i too strongly agree with TIM.......!!!
>>>
>>> If CISCO really wants to filter the guys based upon the knowledge
>>> then
>>> what
>>> TIM has suggested is 100% TRUE or if Cisco wants to make bugs of
>>> it then
>>> its
>>> not good. If this is the case what is the value of written Exam.
>>> why dont
>>> they filter at the written exam itself?
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards
>>> Casim
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 8:26 AM, Jimmy <cciebase_at_gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I agree with Tim:)
>>>>
>>>> Jimmy
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2009/5/18, Tim <timcurci_at_roadrunner.com>:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Scott-
>>>>>
>>>>> I do not think that anyone is questioning whether one should
>>>>> understand
>>>>> what
>>>>> is being asked vis-a-vis the blueprint...although I specifically
>>>>> question
>>>>> the timing of the release of the change in format of the
>>>>> security exam
>>>>> since
>>>>> the blueprint has recently been revised (i.e. more than 30 days
>>>>> notice
>>>>> of
>>>>> the change should have been given). For those taking the exam
>>>>> within the
>>>>> next 90 days this is not what they paid for.
>>>>>
>>>>> Correct me if I am wrong, however, if one "fails" this 4-5
>>>>> question
>>>>> mini-quiz, then one fails the lab. I am not sure what a passing
>>>>> score on
>>>>> this "quiz" is, nor will I ever know :). The whole thing seems
>>>>> somewhat
>>>>> subjective to me.
>>>>>
>>>>> Four to Five questions is not a statistically valid pool of
>>>>> questions
>>>>>
>>>> that
>>>>
>>>>> should invalidate the results of an 8-hour lab exam.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you fail the 4-5 question exam then Cisco should send you
>>>>> home and
>>>>> refund
>>>>> your $1,400.
>>>>>
>>>>> This is getting silly.
>>>>>
>>>>> Tim
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nobody_at_groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody_at_groupstudy.com] On
>>>>> Behalf Of
>>>>> Scott Morris
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2009 9:37 PM
>>>>> To: Mohammed Gazzaz
>>>>> Cc: ccie.weaver_at_gmail.com; ccielab_at_groupstudy.com;
>>>>>
>>>> security_at_groupstudy.com
>>>>
>>>>> Subject: Re: Open-Ended Questions in the CCIE Security Track
>>>>>
>>>>> They're more about the application of knowledge. And that
>>>>> knowledge of
>>>>> protocols is what should be cemented more in your brain now from
>>>>> practicing for the lab exam. The "blueprint" covered by these
>>>>> open-ended questions is the lab blueprint. Although it's
>>>>> written in
>>>>> nature, it's about the application/knowledge of technologies.
>>>>>
>>>>> IMHO if you are practicing enough about how the different
>>>>> technologies
>>>>> really work rather than concentrating on any particular command-
>>>>> line
>>>>> memorization you'll have no problem at all with these things!
>>>>>
>>>>> We are compiling a list of sample questions/ideas and things of
>>>>> that
>>>>> nature at the moment, and will be releasing materials in order
>>>>> to help
>>>>> refresh your memory on things and drive away that fear,
>>>>> uncertainty and
>>>>> doubt!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *Scott Morris*, CCIE/x4/ (R&S/ISP-Dial/Security/Service
>>>>> Provider) #4713,
>>>>>
>>>>> JNCIE-M #153, JNCIS-ER, CISSP, et al.
>>>>>
>>>>> JNCI-M, JNCI-ER
>>>>>
>>>>> smorris_at_internetworkexpert.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Internetwork Expert, Inc.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.InternetworkExpert.com <http://www.internetworkexpert.com/
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> Toll Free: 877-224-8987
>>>>>
>>>>> Outside US: 775-826-4344
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Knowledge is power.
>>>>>
>>>>> Power corrupts.
>>>>>
>>>>> Study hard and be Eeeeviiiil......
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Mohammed Gazzaz wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> You are right, I should not be afraid but I am.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I passed the written test last year and managed to score only
>>>>>> 74%.
>>>>>> I don't really have a good memory and it really hurts to fail
>>>>>> the lab
>>>>>>
>>>>> because of 4 simple questions.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 14:57:29 -0400
>>>>>> Subject: Re: Open-Ended Questions in the CCIE Security Track
>>>>>> From: ccie.weaver_at_gmail.com
>>>>>> To: mgazzaz_at_hotmail.com
>>>>>> CC: ccielab_at_groupstudy.com; security_at_groupstudy.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Technically if you passed the written - you are there already -
>>>>>> that
>>>>>>
>>>>> test
>>>>
>>>>> is filled with OEQ.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 1:11 AM, Mohammed Gazzaz <mgazzaz_at_hotmail.com
>>>>>> >
>>>>>>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What Study materials do you guys
>>>>>> recommend? and are 2 months enough to prepare for the OEQ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Will those be enough ? or do I need more materials?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yusif's book
>>>>>>
>>>>>> DOC CD
>>>>>>
>>>>>> CCIE Security Exam Quick Reference Sheets
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From: amsoares_at_netcabo.pt
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To: ccielab_at_groupstudy.com; security_at_groupstudy.com
>>>>>>> Subject: Open-Ended Questions in the CCIE Security Track
>>>>>>> Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 02:46:38 +0100
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Starting the 15th June:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.cisco.com/web/learning/le3/ccie/announcements/index.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Antonio Soares, CCIE #18473 (R&S)
>>>>>>> amsoares_at_netcabo.pt
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _________________________________________________________________
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>> ---
>> Nefkens Advies
>> Enk 26
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>>
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>>
>>
>> Think before you print.

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Received on Mon May 18 2009 - 16:41:05 ART