From: Jonny English (redkidneybeans@gmail.com)
Date: Sun Nov 23 2008 - 01:06:38 ARST
holy crap. too long to read. Man you can write.
On Sun, Nov 23, 2008 at 4:04 PM, Darby Weaver <ccie.weaver@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hmm...
>
> I've seen and been contacted regarding literally scores (maybe hundreds) of
> positions by now that specifically want someone who has passed a CCIE
> Written exam as a minimum - naturally most want a CCIE too, but supply and
> demand in a region might make this a "want" more than a "need".
>
> Now having a line item in a resume saying passed pass the CCIE Written
> Exams
> is different than claiming one is anything near qualified as a CCIE #xxxxx.
>
> Same rule applies for mentioning that a person has attempted the lab one or
> more times, it does say a person has passed the lab but has at least been
> to
> that level of the program.
>
> Again No Cigar... umm... no CCIE.
>
>
> Using the term CCIE Written to vaguely appear as a real CCIE is deceitful.
>
> Mentioning that one has passed say the CCNP battery of exams and has
> completed the CCIE Written is another level of knowledge.
>
> Let's face it the CCNP is "NOT" the CCIE Written, in terms of content or in
> troubleshooting issues presented and what's more it also does not
> constitute
> that any given Written Exam for any CCIE Specialization covers any of the
> Professional Tracks entirely.
>
> So in my estimation, they are different and both should be included in
> one's
> C.V. and if the employer does not know how to spot a CCIE by #, then that
> recruiter might be better suited working in a field where the question of
> the day is "Would you like fries with that?"
>
> You see in my estimation it would be employers and recruiters at that point
> who do not know what they are looking for in the first place and therefore
> have no business placing a CCIE in a job, assignment or project, etc.
>
>
> See the point.
>
> Now to discard a resume on the basis a person says they passed an exam (a
> fact - can be proven true or false) would not be fair.
>
> Some people are not gifted writers as others or may not be "certifcation
> junkies" and might even slip in the moment or even have a professional
> service use the term "CCIE Written Certified" and then that statement looks
> wrong to a CCIE, but is not necessarily wrong if the person did in fact
> pass
> the exam (aka a certfication exam for the CCIE Written).
>
> I'm not advocating depicting that scenario.
>
> I will say I have the CCIE Written exams I've taken listed on my resume and
> am prepared to present the documentation for them. Example to date I've
> taken and passed 4 CCIE Written Exams and failed one.
>
> I passed the CCIE Written for RS 3 times. Security once, and I failed the
> CCIE DSL once in Beta some years ago in 2001 or 2002.
>
> I think it helps provide an employer with a little bit more of my own
> particular background.
>
> Next I've paid for and taken the CCIE RS Lab a few time - I also think it
> important in some instances to mention this to.
>
> For example a Cisco Partner may be willing to hire a person who has taken
> the Written and maybe has one or more Lab attempts but who is not yet a
> CCIE
> in the hopes that person is closer and after a rigorous and detailed
> interview process... may offer the candidate employment especially for that
> stated purpose.
>
> Now that same employer may care less about hiring the person who is a
> strong
> and capable CCIE, but may have not started the CCIE Program or may not even
> have the inclination to become a CCIE at for that matter.
>
> I think this defends the case of listing such achievements in one's
> educational accomplishments.
>
> Further, I think it also a good idea for a job candidate to list the
> courses
> completed and especially any CCIE Level Training received and completed.
>
> Now - I recently had one employer who seemed to refer to that method as
> "too academic"...
>
> To those types I remember a quote:
>
> "This education is exensive? Try ignorance!"
>
> Yep - I've been going to school since I was five and writing my alphabet
> since about 3 or 4 years of age with my mom and I probably will die reading
> some book or another.
>
> I think to say one cannot distinguish oneself with one's paid for and
> achieved credential in contrary to the trouble and expense one goes through
> to achieve them.
>
> I know back in the day many people were proud to let people know they went
> to a class and it was considered noteworthy.
>
> I can promise you in my military days it helped a person appear more
> motivated to note all courses completed, 5-day classes/professional
> training, and also any courses completed - similar to graded correspondance
> courses.
>
> In any other profession a professional will list such items, and even
> speeches or honorariums, books, papers, etc.
>
> Do these hold less value? No, I think not.
>
> Cisco does not have a "CCIE Written Certifcation" however one can mention
> that one "Passed a Cisco Written Exam aka the Lab Qualification Exam" and
> any recruiter fit to be recruiting for a CCIE will know what this means.
> "CCIE Written Certified" is simply wrong and I personally would expect
> better from any person who actually passed the exam.
>
> If they don't they probably will hire a CCNA or CCNP anyway and they
> probably do not specifically need a CCIE or be able to pay a CCIE at a
> suitable rate.
>
>
> See the difference?
>
> Truthfully the Written Exams really serve the purpose of allowing a person
> the ability to register for and sit the Lab portion of the exam.
>
> Up until it becomes the differentiator on whether or not a person is deemed
> more qualified that the other guy or gal...
>
> If all a person has is your resume, I'd suggest that you list your
> credentials factually and intelligibly in order to get the widest possible
> suitable responses.
>
> It's an advertisement for you, it either works or it does not.
> I can tell you mine works overtime for me and as a result, I get responses
> and a good pick of the litter. I'd suggest each person take the time to
> review their own.
>
> Now if I were doing solely contracts, I'd perform a similar soul search on
> which projects I wanted to advertise and do more of.
>
> I might also recommend, that a person still list other credentials and
> retired/expired credentials if you want them to be considered for
> employment.
>
> Example: I'm an expired CCEA. I leave it off of most resumes since I
> submit, unless I've applied for a position that mentions the use of Citrix.
> Since the idea that I understand the issues with Citrix may be a
> show-stopper, I'd think it relevant.
>
> I also worked in shops as the Lead or only Network guy for HP-UX, Linux,
> Novell, Solaris/Sun a time or two... so if interoperability is at issue, I
> mention it, if not I am not pursuing these roles so I'd leave them off.
>
> Next, I got a big start in Microsoft and worked on a huge network as " the
> guy"... however, nowadays my extensive work in that role would easily
> overshadow my roles as the VPN/NMS/FW admin for example... so maybe I don't
> need to tell people I'm an ACE with Veritas or ARCServe or that I know how
> to build Clusters/SANs/NAS from the ground up...
>
> See where I'm going?
>
> When one creates a C.V. one should consider the audience. Not for me to
> lecture, but I get asked this stuff all the time on one corner of the net
> or
> the other.
>
> And it seems this thread has gone that way.
>
> I'll be quiet now.
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Nov 22, 2008 at 9:16 PM, Atlanta CCIE <atlantaccie@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > same applies to any exam including the lab :)
> > Scott - I hear you on what you are trying to say :-D Goodluck with your
> > written. I am not gonna worry about my written unless I am ready for the
> > lab.
> >
> > On Sat, Nov 22, 2008 at 9:15 PM, Narbik Kocharians <narbikk@gmail.com
> > >wrote:
> >
> > > I give the written
> > > its full due respect and recognize the level of effort and dedication
> > > required to pass it legitimately
> > >
> > > THE KEYWORD IS *LEGITIMATELY*
> > >
> > > On Sat, Nov 22, 2008 at 6:05 PM, Scott M Vermillion <
> > > scott_ccie_list@it-ag.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> And just for the record (again, for whatever it's worth), I give the
> > >> written
> > >> its full due respect and recognize the level of effort and dedication
> > >> required to pass it legitimately. I'm in the final phases of
> preparing
> > to
> > >> do just that for recertification purposes as we speak. So back to my
> > >> studies.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> From: Scott M Vermillion [mailto:scott_ccie_list@it-ag.com]
> > >> Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2008 6:52 PM
> > >> To: 'Atlanta CCIE'; 'armylegionmedic@aol.com'
> > >> Cc: 'joshuaatterbury@gmail.com'; 'ccielab@groupstudy.com'
> > >> Subject: RE: I am now CCIE written certified ( Best way for the lab)
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> I'm guessing you use this yourselves then, eh gents? ;-)
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Look, I'm not going to be dragged into a flame war with language like
> > >> "ignorance at it's best"(notice the inappropriate - some might even
> say
> > >> ignorant - use of the apostrophe there, LOL!). I simply stated what
> my
> > >> practice was when interviewing and hiring was part of my daily job
> > >> description. You don't have to get ugly with me over it. I don't
> flame
> > >> people on this list for making statements about their beliefs or
> hiring
> > >> practices or much of anything else. Why should you? Because you're
> > >> hiding
> > >> behind an alias and you can just let the flamethrower go at will? OK,
> > >> whatever. But take note of the fact that there's at least one guy out
> > >> there
> > >> who considers this to be deceptive and silly and will not approve you
> > for
> > >> an
> > >> interview if he sees it in your resume or in any of your
> communications.
> > >> Can't believe I'm all alone in that regard, so just consider it a
> public
> > >> service message for the benefit of those with open ears and minds.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> And I don't think it's the least bit "harsh," personally. You deceive
> > >> people (HR types, recruiters, etc) who don't have the insight to know
> > the
> > >> difference. I gave a specific example of that happening. If you want
> > to
> > >> tell me you passed the written, that's easy to do without the use of a
> > >> non-existent title.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Scott
> > >>
> > >> "Someone who NEVER once used CCIE in his resume, profile, or signature
> > >> block
> > >> until AFTER he passed the lab (a.k.a #19953, a.k.a Scott (1))"
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> From: Atlanta CCIE [mailto:atlantaccie@gmail.com]
> > >> Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2008 5:20 PM
> > >> To: armylegionmedic@aol.com
> > >> Cc: scott_ccie_list@it-ag.com; joshuaatterbury@gmail.com;
> > >> ccielab@groupstudy.com
> > >> Subject: Re: I am now CCIE written certified ( Best way for the lab)
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Gotta agree with you. Person is NOT claiming that he is a CCIE. I
> think
> > >> you
> > >> have got to mention that you have passed CCIE Written and are
> scheduled
> > to
> > >> attempt the lab. Throwing the resume out just because it says CCIE
> > Written
> > >> is just ignorance at it's best.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Now if it said CCIE with no ccie# then that's a different story :)
> > >>
> > >> On Sat, Nov 22, 2008 at 6:37 PM, <armylegionmedic@aol.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> I would have to say that is a bit harsh. As the CCIE Written is a
> great
> > >> accomplishment as are all level exams that you pass with Cisco. Now,
> if
> > >> someone said they were CCIE then had to reclearify and my favorite to
> > hear
> > >> is well, Im CCIE Theory, so its a form of CCIE. Then I would have to
> > agree
> > >> with you. Also, I feel it is important for someone to list if they
> have
> > at
> > >> least accomplished the written as it shows they are making the effort
> > >> towards and IE. Many people are happy at the professional level and
> have
> > >> no
> > >> desire to extend or progress past that. When someone shows they have
> > >> passed
> > >> the written, it shows they are at least making the effort to achieve
> > more
> > >> and greater in their career.
> > >>
> > >> Just my soap box speak, thats all. I will step down now.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: Scott M Vermillion <scott_ccie_list@it-ag.com>
> > >> To: 'joshua atterbury' <joshuaatterbury@gmail.com>
> > >> Cc: 'Cisco certification' <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
> > >> Sent: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 3:12 pm
> > >> Subject: RE: I am now CCIE written certified ( Best way for the lab)
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Back in my "corporate" days, I would immediately reject any resume
> that
> > >> included the words "CCIE written" anywhere (and this was long before I
> > had
> > >> a
> > >> number or ever thought that I would). That just speaks to a certain
> > >> deceptiveness that should turn you off from any prospective job
> > candidate,
> > >> no matter how seemingly qualified. So it really harms the people
> trying
> > >> to
> > >> pull this off more than anyone. But the sad truth is that people are
> > >> definitely fooled by this. A few months back I had a recruiter call
> and
> > I
> > >> had to turn him down right away because I was already overloaded. He
> > >> called
> > >> me back later that day to ask if I'd be willing to advise him on what
> a
> > >> "CCIE written" was, as he had somebody's resume with that
> "certification
> > >> level" and wanted to know my thoughts as to how qualified this person
> > >> might
> > >> be for the project. I told him that it would be impossible to say on
> > that
> > >> basis alone, considering that some true CCIEs aren't altogether too
> > >> capable
> > >> and many non-CCIEs are freakin' geniuses. But I did share my thoughts
> > as
> > >> to
> > >> what it might say about that person's *integrity.*
> > >>
> > >> For whatever that's worth.
> > >>
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf
> Of
> > >> joshua atterbury
> > >> Sent: Friday, November 21, 2008 7:31 PM
> > >> To: Narbik Kocharians
> > >> Cc: Jonny English; Mark Sh; Cisco certification
> > >> Subject: Re: I am now CCIE written certified ( Best way for the lab)
> > >>
> > >> Maybe this guy has passed his written and is now studying for the lab.
> > >> Unfortunately I have heard people reference themselves as a "Written
> > >> CCIE"
> > >> ie passed written but not lab..... terrible stuff.
> > >>
> > >> On Sat, Nov 22, 2008 at 12:39 PM, Narbik Kocharians
> > >> <narbikk@gmail.com>wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > ??
> > >> >
> > >> > On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 5:10 PM, Jonny English <
> > >> redkidneybeans@gmail.com
> > >> > >wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> > > what?
> > >> > >
> > >> > > why the heck do you want to sit the lab if you are a CCIE already?
> > >> > >
> > >> > > On Sat, Nov 22, 2008 at 2:01 PM, Mark Sh <cciegroupst@gmail.com>
> > >> wrote:
> > >> > >
> > >> > > > Dear All,
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > I am a CCIE almost 1 month ago and I want to start studying f
> > >> or the
> > >> lab
> > >> > > ..
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > what is the best practice to do it (scheduled on march 30th,
> > 2009).
> > >> > would
> > >> > > > you please guide me in the way to get it ..
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > I can get 2 months leave from the company before the lab exam..
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > I appreciate your cooperation and guidance ..
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > Mark
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > >
> > >>
> _______________________________________________________________________
> > >> > > > Subscription information may be found at:
> > >> > > > http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > --
> > >> > > Thank You,
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >>
> _______________________________________________________________________
> > >> > > Subscription information may be found at:
> > >> > > http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > --
> > >> > Narbik Kocharians
> > >> > CCSI#30832, CCIE# 12410 (R&S, SP, Security)
> > >> > www.MicronicsTraining
> > >> > www.Net-Workbooks.com <http://www.net-workbooks.com/> <
> > http://www.net-workbooks.com/>
> > >> > Sr. Technical Instructor
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > _______________________________________________________________________
> > >> > Subscription information may be found at:
> > >> > http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
> > >>
> > >>
> _______________________________________________________________________
> > >> Subscription information may be found at:
> > >> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
> > >>
> > >>
> _______________________________________________________________________
> > >> Subscription information may be found at:
> > >> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
> > >>
> > >>
> _______________________________________________________________________
> > >> Subscription information may be found at:
> > >> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
> > >>
> > >>
> _______________________________________________________________________
> > >> Subscription information may be found at:
> > >> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Narbik Kocharians
> > > CCSI#30832, CCIE# 12410 (R&S, SP, Security)
> > > www.MicronicsTraining
> > > www.Net-Workbooks.com <http://www.net-workbooks.com/>
> > > Sr. Technical Instructor
> >
> >
> > Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
> >
> > _______________________________________________________________________
> > Subscription information may be found at:
> > http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
>
>
> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
>
> _______________________________________________________________________
> Subscription information may be found at:
> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
-- Thank You,Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
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