From: Darby Weaver (ccie.weaver@gmail.com)
Date: Sun Nov 23 2008 - 01:04:35 ARST
Hmm...
I've seen and been contacted regarding literally scores (maybe hundreds) of
positions by now that specifically want someone who has passed a CCIE
Written exam as a minimum - naturally most want a CCIE too, but supply and
demand in a region might make this a "want" more than a "need".
Now having a line item in a resume saying passed pass the CCIE Written Exams
is different than claiming one is anything near qualified as a CCIE #xxxxx.
Same rule applies for mentioning that a person has attempted the lab one or
more times, it does say a person has passed the lab but has at least been to
that level of the program.
Again No Cigar... umm... no CCIE.
Using the term CCIE Written to vaguely appear as a real CCIE is deceitful.
Mentioning that one has passed say the CCNP battery of exams and has
completed the CCIE Written is another level of knowledge.
Let's face it the CCNP is "NOT" the CCIE Written, in terms of content or in
troubleshooting issues presented and what's more it also does not constitute
that any given Written Exam for any CCIE Specialization covers any of the
Professional Tracks entirely.
So in my estimation, they are different and both should be included in one's
C.V. and if the employer does not know how to spot a CCIE by #, then that
recruiter might be better suited working in a field where the question of
the day is "Would you like fries with that?"
You see in my estimation it would be employers and recruiters at that point
who do not know what they are looking for in the first place and therefore
have no business placing a CCIE in a job, assignment or project, etc.
See the point.
Now to discard a resume on the basis a person says they passed an exam (a
fact - can be proven true or false) would not be fair.
Some people are not gifted writers as others or may not be "certifcation
junkies" and might even slip in the moment or even have a professional
service use the term "CCIE Written Certified" and then that statement looks
wrong to a CCIE, but is not necessarily wrong if the person did in fact pass
the exam (aka a certfication exam for the CCIE Written).
I'm not advocating depicting that scenario.
I will say I have the CCIE Written exams I've taken listed on my resume and
am prepared to present the documentation for them. Example to date I've
taken and passed 4 CCIE Written Exams and failed one.
I passed the CCIE Written for RS 3 times. Security once, and I failed the
CCIE DSL once in Beta some years ago in 2001 or 2002.
I think it helps provide an employer with a little bit more of my own
particular background.
Next I've paid for and taken the CCIE RS Lab a few time - I also think it
important in some instances to mention this to.
For example a Cisco Partner may be willing to hire a person who has taken
the Written and maybe has one or more Lab attempts but who is not yet a CCIE
in the hopes that person is closer and after a rigorous and detailed
interview process... may offer the candidate employment especially for that
stated purpose.
Now that same employer may care less about hiring the person who is a strong
and capable CCIE, but may have not started the CCIE Program or may not even
have the inclination to become a CCIE at for that matter.
I think this defends the case of listing such achievements in one's
educational accomplishments.
Further, I think it also a good idea for a job candidate to list the courses
completed and especially any CCIE Level Training received and completed.
Now - I recently had one employer who seemed to refer to that method as
"too academic"...
To those types I remember a quote:
"This education is exensive? Try ignorance!"
Yep - I've been going to school since I was five and writing my alphabet
since about 3 or 4 years of age with my mom and I probably will die reading
some book or another.
I think to say one cannot distinguish oneself with one's paid for and
achieved credential in contrary to the trouble and expense one goes through
to achieve them.
I know back in the day many people were proud to let people know they went
to a class and it was considered noteworthy.
I can promise you in my military days it helped a person appear more
motivated to note all courses completed, 5-day classes/professional
training, and also any courses completed - similar to graded correspondance
courses.
In any other profession a professional will list such items, and even
speeches or honorariums, books, papers, etc.
Do these hold less value? No, I think not.
Cisco does not have a "CCIE Written Certifcation" however one can mention
that one "Passed a Cisco Written Exam aka the Lab Qualification Exam" and
any recruiter fit to be recruiting for a CCIE will know what this means.
"CCIE Written Certified" is simply wrong and I personally would expect
better from any person who actually passed the exam.
If they don't they probably will hire a CCNA or CCNP anyway and they
probably do not specifically need a CCIE or be able to pay a CCIE at a
suitable rate.
See the difference?
Truthfully the Written Exams really serve the purpose of allowing a person
the ability to register for and sit the Lab portion of the exam.
Up until it becomes the differentiator on whether or not a person is deemed
more qualified that the other guy or gal...
If all a person has is your resume, I'd suggest that you list your
credentials factually and intelligibly in order to get the widest possible
suitable responses.
It's an advertisement for you, it either works or it does not.
I can tell you mine works overtime for me and as a result, I get responses
and a good pick of the litter. I'd suggest each person take the time to
review their own.
Now if I were doing solely contracts, I'd perform a similar soul search on
which projects I wanted to advertise and do more of.
I might also recommend, that a person still list other credentials and
retired/expired credentials if you want them to be considered for
employment.
Example: I'm an expired CCEA. I leave it off of most resumes since I
submit, unless I've applied for a position that mentions the use of Citrix.
Since the idea that I understand the issues with Citrix may be a
show-stopper, I'd think it relevant.
I also worked in shops as the Lead or only Network guy for HP-UX, Linux,
Novell, Solaris/Sun a time or two... so if interoperability is at issue, I
mention it, if not I am not pursuing these roles so I'd leave them off.
Next, I got a big start in Microsoft and worked on a huge network as " the
guy"... however, nowadays my extensive work in that role would easily
overshadow my roles as the VPN/NMS/FW admin for example... so maybe I don't
need to tell people I'm an ACE with Veritas or ARCServe or that I know how
to build Clusters/SANs/NAS from the ground up...
See where I'm going?
When one creates a C.V. one should consider the audience. Not for me to
lecture, but I get asked this stuff all the time on one corner of the net or
the other.
And it seems this thread has gone that way.
I'll be quiet now.
On Sat, Nov 22, 2008 at 9:16 PM, Atlanta CCIE <atlantaccie@gmail.com> wrote:
> same applies to any exam including the lab :)
> Scott - I hear you on what you are trying to say :-D Goodluck with your
> written. I am not gonna worry about my written unless I am ready for the
> lab.
>
> On Sat, Nov 22, 2008 at 9:15 PM, Narbik Kocharians <narbikk@gmail.com
> >wrote:
>
> > I give the written
> > its full due respect and recognize the level of effort and dedication
> > required to pass it legitimately
> >
> > THE KEYWORD IS *LEGITIMATELY*
> >
> > On Sat, Nov 22, 2008 at 6:05 PM, Scott M Vermillion <
> > scott_ccie_list@it-ag.com> wrote:
> >
> >> And just for the record (again, for whatever it's worth), I give the
> >> written
> >> its full due respect and recognize the level of effort and dedication
> >> required to pass it legitimately. I'm in the final phases of preparing
> to
> >> do just that for recertification purposes as we speak. So back to my
> >> studies.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> From: Scott M Vermillion [mailto:scott_ccie_list@it-ag.com]
> >> Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2008 6:52 PM
> >> To: 'Atlanta CCIE'; 'armylegionmedic@aol.com'
> >> Cc: 'joshuaatterbury@gmail.com'; 'ccielab@groupstudy.com'
> >> Subject: RE: I am now CCIE written certified ( Best way for the lab)
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I'm guessing you use this yourselves then, eh gents? ;-)
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Look, I'm not going to be dragged into a flame war with language like
> >> "ignorance at it's best"(notice the inappropriate - some might even say
> >> ignorant - use of the apostrophe there, LOL!). I simply stated what my
> >> practice was when interviewing and hiring was part of my daily job
> >> description. You don't have to get ugly with me over it. I don't flame
> >> people on this list for making statements about their beliefs or hiring
> >> practices or much of anything else. Why should you? Because you're
> >> hiding
> >> behind an alias and you can just let the flamethrower go at will? OK,
> >> whatever. But take note of the fact that there's at least one guy out
> >> there
> >> who considers this to be deceptive and silly and will not approve you
> for
> >> an
> >> interview if he sees it in your resume or in any of your communications.
> >> Can't believe I'm all alone in that regard, so just consider it a public
> >> service message for the benefit of those with open ears and minds.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> And I don't think it's the least bit "harsh," personally. You deceive
> >> people (HR types, recruiters, etc) who don't have the insight to know
> the
> >> difference. I gave a specific example of that happening. If you want
> to
> >> tell me you passed the written, that's easy to do without the use of a
> >> non-existent title.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Scott
> >>
> >> "Someone who NEVER once used CCIE in his resume, profile, or signature
> >> block
> >> until AFTER he passed the lab (a.k.a #19953, a.k.a Scott (1))"
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> From: Atlanta CCIE [mailto:atlantaccie@gmail.com]
> >> Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2008 5:20 PM
> >> To: armylegionmedic@aol.com
> >> Cc: scott_ccie_list@it-ag.com; joshuaatterbury@gmail.com;
> >> ccielab@groupstudy.com
> >> Subject: Re: I am now CCIE written certified ( Best way for the lab)
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Gotta agree with you. Person is NOT claiming that he is a CCIE. I think
> >> you
> >> have got to mention that you have passed CCIE Written and are scheduled
> to
> >> attempt the lab. Throwing the resume out just because it says CCIE
> Written
> >> is just ignorance at it's best.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Now if it said CCIE with no ccie# then that's a different story :)
> >>
> >> On Sat, Nov 22, 2008 at 6:37 PM, <armylegionmedic@aol.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> I would have to say that is a bit harsh. As the CCIE Written is a great
> >> accomplishment as are all level exams that you pass with Cisco. Now, if
> >> someone said they were CCIE then had to reclearify and my favorite to
> hear
> >> is well, Im CCIE Theory, so its a form of CCIE. Then I would have to
> agree
> >> with you. Also, I feel it is important for someone to list if they have
> at
> >> least accomplished the written as it shows they are making the effort
> >> towards and IE. Many people are happy at the professional level and have
> >> no
> >> desire to extend or progress past that. When someone shows they have
> >> passed
> >> the written, it shows they are at least making the effort to achieve
> more
> >> and greater in their career.
> >>
> >> Just my soap box speak, thats all. I will step down now.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Scott M Vermillion <scott_ccie_list@it-ag.com>
> >> To: 'joshua atterbury' <joshuaatterbury@gmail.com>
> >> Cc: 'Cisco certification' <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
> >> Sent: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 3:12 pm
> >> Subject: RE: I am now CCIE written certified ( Best way for the lab)
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Back in my "corporate" days, I would immediately reject any resume that
> >> included the words "CCIE written" anywhere (and this was long before I
> had
> >> a
> >> number or ever thought that I would). That just speaks to a certain
> >> deceptiveness that should turn you off from any prospective job
> candidate,
> >> no matter how seemingly qualified. So it really harms the people trying
> >> to
> >> pull this off more than anyone. But the sad truth is that people are
> >> definitely fooled by this. A few months back I had a recruiter call and
> I
> >> had to turn him down right away because I was already overloaded. He
> >> called
> >> me back later that day to ask if I'd be willing to advise him on what a
> >> "CCIE written" was, as he had somebody's resume with that "certification
> >> level" and wanted to know my thoughts as to how qualified this person
> >> might
> >> be for the project. I told him that it would be impossible to say on
> that
> >> basis alone, considering that some true CCIEs aren't altogether too
> >> capable
> >> and many non-CCIEs are freakin' geniuses. But I did share my thoughts
> as
> >> to
> >> what it might say about that person's *integrity.*
> >>
> >> For whatever that's worth.
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
> >> joshua atterbury
> >> Sent: Friday, November 21, 2008 7:31 PM
> >> To: Narbik Kocharians
> >> Cc: Jonny English; Mark Sh; Cisco certification
> >> Subject: Re: I am now CCIE written certified ( Best way for the lab)
> >>
> >> Maybe this guy has passed his written and is now studying for the lab.
> >> Unfortunately I have heard people reference themselves as a "Written
> >> CCIE"
> >> ie passed written but not lab..... terrible stuff.
> >>
> >> On Sat, Nov 22, 2008 at 12:39 PM, Narbik Kocharians
> >> <narbikk@gmail.com>wrote:
> >>
> >> > ??
> >> >
> >> > On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 5:10 PM, Jonny English <
> >> redkidneybeans@gmail.com
> >> > >wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > what?
> >> > >
> >> > > why the heck do you want to sit the lab if you are a CCIE already?
> >> > >
> >> > > On Sat, Nov 22, 2008 at 2:01 PM, Mark Sh <cciegroupst@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > > Dear All,
> >> > > >
> >> > > > I am a CCIE almost 1 month ago and I want to start studying f
> >> or the
> >> lab
> >> > > ..
> >> > > >
> >> > > > what is the best practice to do it (scheduled on march 30th,
> 2009).
> >> > would
> >> > > > you please guide me in the way to get it ..
> >> > > >
> >> > > > I can get 2 months leave from the company before the lab exam..
> >> > > >
> >> > > > I appreciate your cooperation and guidance ..
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Mark
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> _______________________________________________________________________
> >> > > > Subscription information may be found at:
> >> > > > http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > --
> >> > > Thank You,
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> _______________________________________________________________________
> >> > > Subscription information may be found at:
> >> > > http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Narbik Kocharians
> >> > CCSI#30832, CCIE# 12410 (R&S, SP, Security)
> >> > www.MicronicsTraining
> >> > www.Net-Workbooks.com <http://www.net-workbooks.com/> <
> http://www.net-workbooks.com/>
> >> > Sr. Technical Instructor
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
> >> >
> >> >
> _______________________________________________________________________
> >> > Subscription information may be found at:
> >> > http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> >>
> >>
> >> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________________________________
> >> Subscription information may be found at:
> >> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> >>
> >>
> >> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________________________________
> >> Subscription information may be found at:
> >> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> >>
> >>
> >> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________________________________
> >> Subscription information may be found at:
> >> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> >>
> >>
> >> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________________________________
> >> Subscription information may be found at:
> >> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Narbik Kocharians
> > CCSI#30832, CCIE# 12410 (R&S, SP, Security)
> > www.MicronicsTraining
> > www.Net-Workbooks.com <http://www.net-workbooks.com/>
> > Sr. Technical Instructor
>
>
> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
>
> _______________________________________________________________________
> Subscription information may be found at:
> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
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