From: Bill Eyer (beyer@optonline.net)
Date: Tue Oct 07 2008 - 10:09:32 ART
From a real-world perspective, I am not certain that either the CCIE
lab or the questions asked way down in this memo are really realistic.
When I need to know the sequence of syn syn-ack ack, I can always look
it up in Stevens, it's right there on my desk. CCIE lab study also has
you digging into things that don't make a whole lot of sense in a real
world network.
However, getting back to the premise of studying with our without a
vendor workbook, I think it would be pretty difficult to do. The reason
is that you have to think up all kinds of weird scenarios on your own,
then configure and test them. Most of us who have been trained up
through CCNA to CCNP and CCDP, simply can't conceive of anything but a
good design, and have real difficulties with the odd stuff the CCIE lab
might through at you. We are also used to having a clear understanding
of what we are trying to accomplish. The CCIE lab throughs out partial
requirements where you have to guess what the guy who wrote the test is
actually looking for. The CCIE test vendors have the kind of twisted
minds it takes to give you practice in these things.
If you were really really good and had a lot of experience with badly
designed networks, you could do it, but the challange would be higher.
Bill
Darby Weaver wrote:
> Not to get too deep into this...
>
> But if you read a lot of the questions that are asked on forums and even
> here on GS... you might get the impression that many ccie candidates either
> have not yet heard of the DOC CD, don't have good reading comprehension
> skills, or do not have a rack to practice on.
>
> What's worse is when people who have reportedly passed the CCIE Lab portion
> of the exam come back to ask some of those same questions from "a real world
> perspsective".
>
> This is sad and thankfully is not always the case, but sometimes it does
> happen, even here. All you have to do is browse the archives.
>
> Just remember the goal of the CCIE Program is not to mass-produce "CCIE's"
> it is instead to create a higher standard of a "quality network engineer"
> and if you are adhering to this philosophy then you are the real deal.
>
> Let's face it if you were asked to list the order of operations for:
>
> ARP
> Spanning-Tree
> RIP
> EIGRP
> OSPF
> BGP
> Multicast
> HSRP or VRRP or GLBP
> IP Routing
> etc.
>
> Any day of the week... Can you do it flawlessly? Sure any of the
> instructors can... :) or quasi-instructors.
>
> I would think that a CCIE who uses debug would be able to, especially if
> his/her track was RS.
>
> These are the little things that many people forget and trust me I've been
> there on interviews where I sometimes draw a blank, but in the course of
> conversation with your peers if you have some conveniently available, these
> discussions might come up on a break, over lunch, etc.
>
> It is helpful to have conversations like these. It's the joy of having a
> peer-group.
>
> Those without peers suffer because they might not have the benefit of having
> these discussions that help us bring out what we know or what we do not know
> or may even have forgotten.
>
> It almost makes you think that Roosevelt Giles should be required reading.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 3:54 AM, Peter Chuba <ptchuba@live.com> wrote:
>
>
>> Maybe you should have given them the DocCD! :) hehehe
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
>> Radioactive Frog
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2008 6:05 AM
>> To: Wes Stevens
>> Cc: Joseph Brunner; ccielab@groupstudy.com
>> Subject: Re: CCIE, i wish to take a different path !
>>
>> While you're on the topic, I would like to share you a real story of what
>> happend last week.
>>
>> My bI've interviewed 2 CCIE's R&S guys and they can't even get the 3 wayTCP
>> handshake TCP-seqence number right.
>> I through 5questions to see how they know their stuffs. They were pretty
>> basic CCNA level questions.
>> Those questions were not about the BGP or OSPF or any dynamics protocol but
>> just real basic stuffs.
>>
>> another question was easy as a toddler could have done it but both CCIE
>> guys
>> (R&S ) couldn't do them right: the question was
>>
>> R1------r2-------r3----------r4
>>
>> as packet goes from r1 to r4 list the src/dst mac/ip address.
>>
>> Damn!! I have seen those paper CCIE now! so I told my boss that u want them
>> to go to the customer site and then ringing to Cisco TAC from the site or
>> opening a case?
>>
>> It's shame, how people can get such a pretistiagous cert without knowing
>> the
>> stuffs.
>>
>>
>> On the other hand I interviewed another CCNA guy and he holds masters
>> degree. He was 200 times bettern than those CCIE guys. He answerdd all
>> questions which were really below CCNA level.
>>
>> So I said to my boss, hey, hire that CCNA guy. He would be the one who will
>> do the job in the field and won't upset your customers.
>>
>> Just sharing real life experience with you guys!! may be someone else have
>> done this before.
>>
>> -frog
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 3:46 AM, Wes Stevens
>> <wrsteve33-gsccie@yahoo.com>wrote:
>>
>>
>>> No myth they are doing interviews before the bejing lab. As to who would
>>> fail the interview that could pass the lab - is someone that memorized
>>> curent lab contents but did not have the experience to pass the interview
>>> process.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----
>>> From: Joseph Brunner <joe@affirmedsystems.com>
>>> To: Wes Stevens <wrsteve33-gsccie@yahoo.com>; Darby Weaver <
>>> ccie.weaver@gmail.com>
>>> Cc: ccielab@groupstudy.com
>>> Sent: Monday, October 6, 2008 11:08:56 AM
>>> Subject: RE: CCIE, i wish to take a different path !
>>>
>>> There is no interview... that was a myth right????
>>>
>>> Who would legitimately pass the lab, and fail some interview (perhaps
>>> because they don't speak well or are nervous, then be denied a number)
>>>
>>> Lets leaving the trolling to the CCNP board!
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
>>> Wes
>>> Stevens
>>> Sent: Monday, October 06, 2008 9:49 AM
>>> To: Darby Weaver
>>> Cc: ccielab@groupstudy.com
>>> Subject: Re: CCIE, i wish to take a different path !
>>>
>>> I was told the pass rate in bejing was extreamely high till the interview
>>> exam was implemented. Then it dropped back to the 20% range.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----
>>> From: Darby Weaver <ccie.weaver@gmail.com>
>>> To: Hobbs <deadheadblues@gmail.com>
>>> Cc: john matijevic <john.matijevic@gmail.com>; Tony Varriale
>>> <tvarriale@flamboyaninc.com>; Gary Duncanson <
>>>
>> garyduncanson@btinternet.com
>>
>>>> ;
>>>>
>>> Cisco certification <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
>>> Sent: Sunday, October 5, 2008 9:07:43 PM
>>> Subject: Re: CCIE, i wish to take a different path !
>>>
>>> Not to belabor the point. Jared, Narbik and others were quiet eloquent
>>>
>> and
>>
>>> to the point.
>>>
>>> Yes you can probably eventually pass the CCIE Lab on your own with little
>>> or
>>> no use of any workbooks.
>>>
>>> It was done in the past by a few people still here to tell the tale
>>>
>> today.
>>
>>> Would you want to? Ouch! Maybe not.
>>>
>>> I've found the CCIE Lab Exam to be littered with lots of things that one
>>> can
>>> find on one's own but even reading the design guides a few times and
>>>
>> poring
>>
>>> through the command references all the while typing at the CLI would just
>>> take an enormous amount of attention to detail - very much quality
>>> attention
>>> to details.
>>>
>>> Now one could pass just learning the specifics on putting making a pod
>>> work. I think this is possible. But I do not think it is the most
>>> practical way to go about it.
>>>
>>> There are a lot of very intelligent people on-list and off-list who take
>>> more than one trip to the CCIE Lunch Buffet. There's a reason. Maybe we
>>> are all deluded... or maybe we just did not pay enough attention the
>>>
>> first
>>
>>> time.
>>>
>>> Today lots of bloggers are passing of their reported first attempt. I'd
>>> like to see if Cisco acknowledges this % of improvement. I've heard some
>>> people claim their first attempt and yet they say elsewhere they went
>>>
>> some
>>
>>> years before, etc. Not quite the first attempt. :)
>>>
>>> It may be possible, but it may not be feasible.
>>>
>>> There's a certain school of thought that firmly is entrenched in the idea
>>> that this lab is very much an insider's exam.
>>>
>>> Knowing what I know, who I know and knew, and a few long years now with
>>> hindsight being 20/20, I'd say that while it may not be intended to have
>>> been an insider's exam, it may well have come to that.
>>>
>>> I do think that if one were quite experienced with a wide variety of
>>> technologies, that the lab difficulty diminishes with the inverse of
>>>
>> one's
>>
>>> experiences with any given technology tested.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Oct 5, 2008 at 7:19 PM, Hobbs <deadheadblues@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Ovais: Everybody's path IS different :)
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Oct 5, 2008 at 5:01 PM, john matijevic <
>>>>
>> john.matijevic@gmail.com
>>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hello Andrew,
>>>>> The author of the BGP and OSPF Command Reference books is name is
>>>>> Parkhurst,
>>>>> I had the pleasure of meeting him personally when I went for my lab.
>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>> John
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Oct 5, 2008 at 6:19 PM, Tony Varriale <
>>>>>
>>>> tvarriale@flamboyaninc.com
>>>>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Comments inline.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On
>>>>>>
>> Behalf
>>
>>>> Of
>>>>
>>>>>> Gary
>>>>>> Duncanson
>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2008 3:24 PM
>>>>>> To: Ovais Iqbal
>>>>>> Cc: Cisco certification
>>>>>> Subject: Re: CCIE, i wish to take a different path !
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Vendor products are certainly popular, however it is something of
>>>>>>>
>> an
>>
>>>>> urban
>>>>>
>>>>>>> myth that they are a relatively new phenomenon. Bootcamps and
>>>>>>>
>>> bootcamp
>>>
>>>>>>> labbooks have been around in one form or another for almost as
>>>>>>>
>> long
>>
>>> as
>>>
>>>>> the
>>>>>
>>>>>>> CCIE track has been public. In other words they have been used to
>>>>>>>
>> a
>>
>>>>>> greater
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> or lesser extent by just about every CCIE minted for years now.
>>>>>>>
>>>> Practice
>>>>
>>>>>>> labs do not have to come from vendors though.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is obviously true for >= than the mid old-schoolers. Before
>>>>>> ccwhocamp,
>>>>>> the primary learning experience was formal training and/or OTJ.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The mid old-schoolers had 4 primary outlets: 1) ccwhocamp 2) own
>>>>>> experience/dev 3) groupstudy lab test answer posting 4) formal
>>>>>>
>>> training
>>>
>>>>>> I can assure you that #3 was a HUGE explosion in the CCIE process
>>>>>>
>>>> during
>>>>
>>>>>> this time frame.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cisco Press have done practice
>>>>>>> labs through books by Gorito and Duggan and Solie has practice
>>>>>>>
>> labs
>>
>>> as
>>>
>>>>>> well.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There was also 'fatkid' once upon a time but I digress :)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cisco Press was a factor after mid old-school, IMHO.
>>>>>> w
>>>>>> Fatkid? Where is fatty (I forgot his name...darnit)? I'm very
>>>>>>
>> aware
>>
>>>> of
>>>>
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> labs that were "offered". I'm also aware of what was available on
>>>>>>
>>> the
>>>
>>>>> lab
>>>>>
>>>>>> exam in 2000 (or before). And, I'm not the only one.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In terms of challenge, regardless of the mix of materials you use,
>>>>>>>
>>> you
>>>
>>>>>> still
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> have to put the necessary time in to cover the lab footprint and
>>>>>>>
>> get
>>
>>>> to
>>>>
>>>>> a
>>>>>
>>>>>>> point where you can recall the *right* solution to meet particular
>>>>>>> requirements.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'll disagree here. Any idea of why certain regions of the world
>>>>>>
>> are
>>
>>>>>> moving
>>>>>> towards an interview before you sit?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Vendor materials are helpful but
>>>>>>> not a magic bullet. You have to make the effort. Many people have
>>>>>>>
>>>>> invested
>>>>>
>>>>>>> lots of money in multiple vendor sources and come unglued. A
>>>>>>>
>> vendor
>>
>>>>>> product
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> wont give you determination or the inherent intellect to be able
>>>>>>>
>> to
>>
>>>>>>> understand it all.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Obviously you have to have the capability. But, the amount of
>>>>>>
>>>>> organization
>>>>>
>>>>>> and material offered today from CCIE vendors is absolutely amazing.
>>>>>>
>>> If
>>>
>>>>> you
>>>>>
>>>>>> consider price too, it's mind blowing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cisco Press books and CCO offer an almost endless source of
>>>>>>> topologies you can lab up and play with at home and I recommend
>>>>>>>
>> you
>>
>>> do
>>>
>>>>> so.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Sure, Cisco Press is definitely the pinnacle of Cisconess. But,
>>>>>>
>>>> consider
>>>>
>>>>>> this. There are
>>>>>> some CP books that just don't measure up...some are way outside of
>>>>>>
>>> the
>>>
>>>>>> acceptable variation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tv
>>>>>>
>>>>>> PS - Brad, no hard feelings on the whocamp stuff. I didn't invent
>>>>>>
>>>> that,
>>>>
>>>>> I
>>>>>
>>>>>> just thought it was funny. :)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Ovais Iqbal" <ovais.iqball@yahoo.com>
>>>>>> To: <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2008 6:43 PM
>>>>>> Subject: CCIE, i wish to take a different path !
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi all, first of all i mean no disrespect to the gurus who are
>>>>>>>
>>>> helping
>>>>
>>>>>>> CCIEs a
>>>>>>> lot, namely IE, IPexpert, Narbik and others,
>>>>>>> mostly when i read the success stories, one point is present in
>>>>>>>
>> all
>>
>>>> of
>>>>
>>>>>>> them, x
>>>>>>> months configuring the routers using x vendors workbooks, i just
>>>>>>>
>>> want
>>>
>>>>> to
>>>>>
>>>>>>> know
>>>>>>> something very simple, can some one pass the lab without these
>>>>>>>
>>>>> workbooks
>>>>>
>>>>>> ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>> someone suggest me a path that i shall take if i dont want to use
>>>>>>>
>>> any
>>>
>>>>> of
>>>>>
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> vendors ? right now i think getting CCIE is not a challenge any
>>>>>>>
>>> more,
>>>
>>>>> no
>>>>>
>>>>>>> offense, but thats the truth, look around and you will see a hell
>>>>>>>
>>> lot
>>>
>>>>>>> increase
>>>>>>> in the production of CCIE as never seen before, i know more and
>>>>>>>
>>> more
>>>
>>>>> ppl
>>>>>
>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>> inclined towards it but i think the real challenge is to take the
>>>>>>>
>>> lab
>>>
>>>>>>> without
>>>>>>> using any of the workbooks, ( again no offense to the latest
>>>>>>>
>> CCIEs,
>>
>>> i
>>>
>>>>>>> respect
>>>>>>> them all :-) ),
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is there anyone who took the lab without using any vendors, can
>>>>>>>
>>>> he/she
>>>>
>>>>>>> shed
>>>>>>> some light on his/her preparation ??
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________________________________
>>>>
>>>>>>> Subscription information may be found at:
>>>>>>> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________________________________
>>>
>>>>>> Subscription information may be found at:
>>>>>> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________________________________
>>>
>>>>>> Subscription information may be found at:
>>>>>> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
>>>>>>
>>>>> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>> _______________________________________________________________________
>>
>>>>> Subscription information may be found at:
>>>>> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
>>>>>
>>>> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________________________________
>>>> Subscription information may be found at:
>>>> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
>>>>
>>> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________________________________
>>> Subscription information may be found at:
>>> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
>>>
>>>
>>> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________________________________
>>> Subscription information may be found at:
>>> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
>>>
>>>
>>> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________________________________
>>> Subscription information may be found at:
>>> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
>>>
>> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
>>
>> _______________________________________________________________________
>> Subscription information may be found at:
>> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
>>
>>
>> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
>>
>> _______________________________________________________________________
>> Subscription information may be found at:
>> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
>>
>
>
> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
>
> _______________________________________________________________________
> Subscription information may be found at:
> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
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