From: Gary Duncanson (garyduncanson@btinternet.com)
Date: Mon Oct 06 2008 - 06:52:28 ART
Tony,
Yes I agree with your comments. Where you disagree I think I know what you
are trying to say there. I hadn't brooched that subject but I agree with
you.
Some Cisco press material is disappointing.
I have to say that being fairly 'old school' myself I was fairly sceptical
of vendor labbooks when more folks on the list started to use them. But
having experienced them the last year on and off I have found them useful
from the point of view of technology tutorial and a structured approach.
That said Im still inclined as I used to be to build out examples I find in
books and on the cisco website.
The CCIE went mainstream some years ago offering affordable access to
workbooks. In the medeval days Mentortech bootcamps and labbooks were not as
accessible as today's offerings in terms of availability and affordability
to so many students. I think this has certainly brought more people to the
party. I do wonder though if the end-to-end tracks offered mean some people
ditch the old tried and tested methods of learning. I still find value in
them but then that's how I started. I recall loaning an ISDN switch for a
week and doing all the exercises I could find in 2002. Similarly taking a
bit of time off work to learn how to set up a Xyplex because Cisco 2509's
were so expensive back then. Cisco website/DocCD and books still offer lots
of essential learning opportunities. You went through a lot of grief back
then getting things working that vendor books have laid out for you nicely
these days but I found the grief worthwhile in the end.
I do wonder sometimes if some candidates get overwhelmed with all this
material on offer by vendors though and end up chopping and changing when
perhaps they would be better off, for example, just disappearing into home
grown labs on switching for a few weeks. I also think there might also be
an inclination to memorise the solutions in workbooks.
I still have the fatkid labs filed. There were by a guy called Derek Small
if you want them ;)
Regards
Gary
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Varriale" <tvarriale@flamboyaninc.com>
To: "'Gary Duncanson'" <garyduncanson@btinternet.com>
Cc: "'Cisco certification'" <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2008 11:19 PM
Subject: RE: CCIE, i wish to take a different path !
> Comments inline.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
> Gary
> Duncanson
> Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2008 3:24 PM
> To: Ovais Iqbal
> Cc: Cisco certification
> Subject: Re: CCIE, i wish to take a different path !
>
>>Vendor products are certainly popular, however it is something of an urban
>>myth that they are a relatively new phenomenon. Bootcamps and bootcamp
>>labbooks have been around in one form or another for almost as long as the
>>CCIE track has been public. In other words they have been used to a
>>greater
>
>>or lesser extent by just about every CCIE minted for years now. Practice
>>labs do not have to come from vendors though.
>
> This is obviously true for >= than the mid old-schoolers. Before
> ccwhocamp,
> the primary learning experience was formal training and/or OTJ.
>
> The mid old-schoolers had 4 primary outlets: 1) ccwhocamp 2) own
> experience/dev 3) groupstudy lab test answer posting 4) formal training
>
> I can assure you that #3 was a HUGE explosion in the CCIE process during
> this time frame.
>
>>Cisco Press have done practice
>>labs through books by Gorito and Duggan and Solie has practice labs as
> well.
>>There was also 'fatkid' once upon a time but I digress :)
>
> Cisco Press was a factor after mid old-school, IMHO.
> w
> Fatkid? Where is fatty (I forgot his name...darnit)? I'm very aware of
> the
> labs that were "offered". I'm also aware of what was available on the lab
> exam in 2000 (or before). And, I'm not the only one.
>
>>In terms of challenge, regardless of the mix of materials you use, you
> still
>>have to put the necessary time in to cover the lab footprint and get to a
>>point where you can recall the *right* solution to meet particular
>>requirements.
>
> I'll disagree here. Any idea of why certain regions of the world are
> moving
> towards an interview before you sit?
>
>>Vendor materials are helpful but
>>not a magic bullet. You have to make the effort. Many people have invested
>>lots of money in multiple vendor sources and come unglued. A vendor
>>product
>
>>wont give you determination or the inherent intellect to be able to
>>understand it all.
>
> Obviously you have to have the capability. But, the amount of
> organization
> and material offered today from CCIE vendors is absolutely amazing. If
> you
> consider price too, it's mind blowing.
>
>>Cisco Press books and CCO offer an almost endless source of
>>topologies you can lab up and play with at home and I recommend you do so.
>
> Sure, Cisco Press is definitely the pinnacle of Cisconess. But, consider
> this. There are
> some CP books that just don't measure up...some are way outside of the
> acceptable variation.
>
> Tv
>
> PS - Brad, no hard feelings on the whocamp stuff. I didn't invent that, I
> just thought it was funny. :)
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ovais Iqbal" <ovais.iqball@yahoo.com>
> To: <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
> Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2008 6:43 PM
> Subject: CCIE, i wish to take a different path !
>
>
>> Hi all, first of all i mean no disrespect to the gurus who are helping
>> CCIEs a
>> lot, namely IE, IPexpert, Narbik and others,
>> mostly when i read the success stories, one point is present in all of
>> them, x
>> months configuring the routers using x vendors workbooks, i just want to
>> know
>> something very simple, can some one pass the lab without these workbooks
>> ?
>
>> can
>> someone suggest me a path that i shall take if i dont want to use any of
>> the
>> vendors ? right now i think getting CCIE is not a challenge any more, no
>> offense, but thats the truth, look around and you will see a hell lot
>> increase
>> in the production of CCIE as never seen before, i know more and more ppl
>> are
>> inclined towards it but i think the real challenge is to take the lab
>> without
>> using any of the workbooks, ( again no offense to the latest CCIEs, i
>> respect
>> them all :-) ),
>>
>> Is there anyone who took the lab without using any vendors, can he/she
>> shed
>> some light on his/her preparation ??
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>>
>> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
>>
>> _______________________________________________________________________
>> Subscription information may be found at:
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>
>
> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
>
> _______________________________________________________________________
> Subscription information may be found at:
> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
>
>
> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
>
> _______________________________________________________________________
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Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
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