From: Ovais Iqbal (ovais.iqball@yahoo.com)
Date: Mon Oct 06 2008 - 05:15:39 ART
Thanks all of you for feedback, actually i am pursuing CCIE SP and not RnS, ofcourse ppl warned me that it will be difficult for service provider since there will be not much material out there, but if any has used the approach for CCIE SP ( like i intended ), and can let me know some good cisco practical books to practice mpls and vpn stuff then i will be thankful.
Plus, is it sufficient to say that nothing comes outside of doc cd ? i know the scenarios that are asked will not be exact copy but they will surely not ask me something thats not there at all right ??
--- On Sun, 10/5/08, Narbik Kocharians <narbikk@gmail.com> wrote:
From: Narbik Kocharians <narbikk@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: CCIE, i wish to take a different path !
To: "Jared Scrivener" <jscrivener@ipexpert.com>
Cc: "Ovais Iqbal" <ovais.iqball@yahoo.com>, ccielab@groupstudy.com
Date: Sunday, October 5, 2008, 7:39 PM
Ovais,
You can easily do it, you can pass without any work books from any vendor,
all you need to do is hit the DOC CD. If you know that DOC CD and have
experience on routers and switches, you should pass.
The DOC CD does not identify the behavior of the protocols and/or
identify the tricky configurations like we (The Vendors) do in the boot
camps or work books.
Some people attend the boot camps and/or spend the money purchasing work
books because their time means money, and besides you can not talk to DOC CD
or ask it questions, believe me i tried and it won't answer. I am NOT
trying
to be a smart...
You may have lots of free time, but not many people do, between work, home,
THE wife, kids and etc.
Good luck.
On Sun, Oct 5, 2008 at 11:47 AM, Jared Scrivener
<jscrivener@ipexpert.com>wrote:
> Hi Ovais,
>
> That's an interesting point you raised - interesting enough for me to
write
> a post about it.
>
> You mention that you want a challenge, so my question in response is
"Why?"
> My second question is "Really?"
>
> The CCIE is a measurement of applied knowledge, nothing more, nothing
less.
> When more people achieve that level of knowledge we see a greater increase
> in the number of people who achieve CCIE status. Does that diminish the
> level of knowledge any of us ascertained? No. In fact society is better
off
> for it.
>
> There are many methods people can take in a pursuit of knowledge, only one
> of which is to purchase workbooks, engage in rack time and attend boot
> camps. However there is a reason that many students take this method - we
> as
> training providers are specialists not only in the areas of knowledge that
> the CCIE tests but also in devising methods to convey this knowledge. This
> results in our students minimizing the time it takes them to succeed in
> their objective - attainment of a CCIE.
>
> It appears in your case that attainment of CCIE status may not be
> (entirely)
> the challenge you desire. Perhaps you want to achieve something more and I
> applaud that desire.
>
> Given that the CCIE is the "level" of knowledge which you seek
to use as
> your benchmark, then an additional challenge could be to discover a better
> method - your post indicates that this is something you are considering.
>
> In defining the validity of a method of learning, the only variables I can
> think of are "completeness of understanding" and "time to
achieve
> understanding". A third one, an extension of this is "ability to
> communicate
> understanding" and that takes you from being a student to a teacher
and is
> the reason I choose to instruct.
>
> The "completeness of understanding" is not set by you, but by
Cisco in
> terms
> of measurement. So for the purposes of discussion it cannot be changed by
> you or I. Sure there is more to learn than just that of a single CCIE
> track,
> but that is a separate topic to consider.
>
> The "time to achieve understanding" is within your control. So I
challenge
> you - how fast can you achieve this? Throughout my life I have used this
as
> my benchmark to assess my intellectual achievements - did I learn, and how
> fast did I learn - feel free to take this on as your challenge.
>
> If you decide to accept the challenge, my next question is: How are you
> planning on achieving the goal?
>
> IPexpert and our competitors all provide training products, the
measurement
> of which is whether they assist in the process of attaining
"completeness
> of
> understanding" and minimising "time to achieve
understanding" by our
> students.
>
> If our products are so verbose that they require students to take longer
to
> achieve the required level of understanding than necessary they are
flawed.
> If our products are too vague such that completing them doesn't elicit
> understanding (measured by exam success) they are flawed. This is our
> measurement of success.
>
> If you believe that you can devise a better method, by all means do so.
> That
> becomes not only an intellectual challenge, but one with lucrative
rewards,
> for if you can communicate your new method you can sell it and it would be
> valuable - I know I'd pay for it.
>
> Bear in mind that there will always be limitations. To gain knowledge you
> (presumably) must refer to materials that already exist - be they from
> Cisco, vendors (like us) or peers. On considering all sources of
> information
> a method of selection needs to occur as to what materials have value to
> you,
> and what sequence to evaluate them (sequencing is an important and often
> overlooked element of preparation). You then need to create a mental
> framework for analysing and storing that information.
>
> The best method I know of for this is reading from theoretical sources
> (gaining information), and practising on actual equipment (applying
> knowledge). Our workbooks are designed to consolidate this process as
> efficiently as possible.
>
> Again, you may devise a better method, and I challenge you to do so.
>
> I look forward now, in the spirit of competition, to seeing how you do
this
> (your method), how well you do this (if you pass) and how long it takes
you
> to do this. As a corollary to this, your determination is also of interest
> -
> if your method is insufficient are you willing to revise it to succeed?
> This
> is the ultimate benchmark by which all of us measure ourselves - did we
get
> our CCIE.
>
> I'm not being at all sarcastic in this challenge (often my emails
appear
> so)
> - this is the measurement stick I use for my own success and I look
forward
> to learning from your process. I would warn you however - this may not be
> as
> easy as it appears from the outset. :)
>
> Cheers,
>
> Jared Scrivener CCIE3 #16983 (R&S, Security, SP), CISSP
> Technical Instructor - IPexpert, Inc.
> Telephone: +1.810.326.1444
> Fax: +1.810.454.0130
> Mailto: jscrivener@ipexpert.com
> Blog: jaredscrivener.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
> Ovais Iqbal
> Sent: Sunday, 5 October 2008 1:44 PM
> To: ccielab@groupstudy.com
> Subject: CCIE, i wish to take a different path !
>
> Hi all, first of all i mean no disrespect to the gurus who are helping
> CCIEs
> a
> lot, namely IE, IPexpert, Narbik and others,
> mostly when i read the success stories, one point is present in all of
> them,
> x
> months configuring the routers using x vendors workbooks, i just want to
> know
> something very simple, can some one pass the lab without these workbooks ?
> can
> someone suggest me a path that i shall take if i dont want to use any of
> the
> vendors ? right now i think getting CCIE is not a challenge any more, no
> offense, but thats the truth, look around and you will see a hell lot
> increase
> in the production of CCIE as never seen before, i know more and more ppl
> are
> inclined towards it but i think the real challenge is to take the lab
> without
> using any of the workbooks, ( again no offense to the latest CCIEs, i
> respect
> them all :-) ),
>
> Is there anyone who took the lab without using any vendors, can he/she
shed
> some light on his/her preparation ??
>
> Thanks
>
>
> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
>
> _______________________________________________________________________
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>
>
> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
>
> _______________________________________________________________________
> Subscription information may be found at:
> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
-- Narbik Kocharians CCSI#30832, CCIE# 12410 (R&S, SP, Security) www.MicronicsTraining www.Net-Workbooks.com Sr. Technical InstructorBlogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
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