RE: CCIE on Trial at NetworkWorld

From: Scott Morris (smorris@ipexpert.com)
Date: Fri Jun 13 2008 - 15:07:53 ART

Yup. Very true.

Very valid points. And Robert seems to have a fairly black-and-white
academic view of things. Which, if you are trying to create/push a
standardization makes perfect sense!

Ah well, hopefully things will die down a bit and Ethan can come back to the
world of the living. Although I'd bet he chooses his words much more
carefully going forward. ;)

Scott
 

-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Cosgrove [mailto:paul.cosgrove@heanet.ie]
Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 1:39 PM
To: Scott Morris
Cc: 'Luan Nguyen'; 'Joseph Brunner'; 'Anthony Sequeira';
ccielab@groupstudy.com
Subject: Re: CCIE on Trial at NetworkWorld

Hi Scott,

I can see your viewpoint, but whenever I see posts here about 'real labs' I
assume they are advertisements by rip off vendors; Robert seems to be making
the opposite assumption. Maybe his guess is right, but it too seems to be
only a guess.

Robert feels strongly about TestKings and the like, so strongly, according
to his blurb, that "Robert decided that it was time for someone to dedicate
their time to preventing the spread of these illegal products and
services.And CertGuard was born."

Personally I don't think he helps his chosen career path as an upholder of
examination standards by targeting individuals who state that these
documents do not contain what some may think, namely that they do not appear
to be copies of the actual lab. This is a point which Robert does not
appear to accept, but having put his own examinations on hold, it is unclear
exactly why he holds such firm beliefs.

Robert clearly assumes that Ethan looking at a testking is evidence of a
desire to cheat. If someone looks at documents which they believe to hold
NDA material, I would look poorly upon it. But I certainly wouldn't assume
the worst and brand someone a cheat based on the three sentences all this
stems from. I can't say what Ethans thoughts were, and I doubt Robert has
that insight, but I've never met a CCIE candidate who expressed an opinion
that anything other than hard work would get them through a lab. I would
wonder why someone, if they had a desire to cheat, would apparently only
look at old material.

Seems ironic that the person here who seems to be effectively promoting the
use of this type of material is Robert himself. He seems to be the only
person who is suggesting they hold any secrets about the lab, and is raising
their profile and damaging his own cause and reputation in the process.

Paul.

Scott Morris wrote:
> I'm not supporting what Robert William's did in crucifying Ethan!
> Don't get me wrong....
>
> And while I appreciate the difference of "looking" at something versus
> "relying" on them. But like I said, where do you draw the line?
>
> We tend to give more "leeway" when someone going for a higher
> (hands-on) cert that just looks at that material to help them get
> higher up. Would you look at someone differently who was only going
> to go as far as their CCNP but had used that material to help them pass
the tests?
>
> I know that reality gives a lot more grey area than the academic view
> Robert posted of "he admittied that he cheated therefore he's a
> cheater", but where does that line get crossed?
>
> Why doesn't Cisco go after them? Excellent question, and I'm not the
> one to answer that! My guess it that it would involve the quantity of
> money and differing laws in different countries where many of these
> companies are based. I could be wrong, but I seem to think that TK was a
british company.
> Microsoft tried to go after them a while back but wasn't very
> successful as I recall.
>
> So right, wrong, or indifferent they are going to be around. The
> difference seems to be do you ONLY know the TK (or other) information,
> or have you REALLY learned stuff beyond that. And I know the I don't
> have the time or energy to try to figure that one out with people. ;)
>
> *shrug* One of those things in life we will have to deal with in our
> hiring practices!
>
> Scott
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf
> Of Luan Nguyen
> Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 12:27 PM
> To: 'Scott Morris'; 'Joseph Brunner'; 'Anthony Sequeira';
> ccielab@groupstudy.com
> Subject: RE: CCIE on Trial at NetworkWorld
>
> Is it wrong to look at TK product? I vaguely remember someone posted
> on one of the board a couple days ago on how to use TK and subscribe
> to Safari do do a search for solution. If Cisco knows about TK and
> others, why don't THEY do something about it? Instead letting people
> like CertGuard making profits by proclaiming themselves protector of the
cert virgin.
> Oh, and admitting to look at TK and others' so called braindump products?
> Lots of people do - famous one too :)
>
> -Luan
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf
> Of Scott Morris
> Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 12:06 PM
> To: 'Joseph Brunner'; 'Anthony Sequeira'; ccielab@groupstudy.com
> Subject: RE: CCIE on Trial at NetworkWorld
>
> I think they are more worried about the idea that people download
> questions to magically obtain certifications which they may or may not
> be qualified for.
>
> I think we've all seen that. In fact a search of the archives will
> show many discussions of this over the years in different fashions.
>
> So while it's a very real problem, I think the article went a little
> too far in crucifying Ethan. I really don't know anything about Ethan
> and haven't ever worked with him, but it seems a little harsh to devalue
all he has done
> based on his posting, but he DID admit to using the TK product! I seem
to
> recall people in here getting flamed for even asking about "real labs"
> let alone admitting to using them.
>
> Where does the line get drawn?
>
> Just a thought.
>
> Scott
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf
> Of Joseph Brunner
> Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 11:55 AM
> To: 'Anthony Sequeira'; ccielab@groupstudy.com
> Subject: RE: CCIE on Trial at NetworkWorld
>
> certguard is afraid of testking because they are too stupid to figure
> out how to download it...
>
> They should be more worried about learning how to use cisco hardware
> than worrying about what certs other people have...
>
> lets see their list certs!
>
> Joseph Brunner
> CCIE, CCDP, CCNP, CCDA, CCNA, MCSE 2003
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf
> Of Anthony Sequeira
> Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 11:53 AM
> To: ccielab@groupstudy.com
> Subject: RE: CCIE on Trial at NetworkWorld
>
> This Network World post has a link to a comparison of TestKing and the
> TESTiT product I helped create for NetMasterClass. The link no longer
works.
> Anyone have access to that comparison?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Anthony J. Sequeira
> #15626
> www.freeiestuff.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf
> Of Paul Cosgrove
> Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 10:39 AM
> To: Tony Varriale
> Cc: ccielab@groupstudy.com
> Subject: Re: CCIE on Trial at NetworkWorld
>
> Search for Ethan Banks at www.networkworld.com
>
> Tony Varriale wrote:
>> Anyone have a link?
>>
>> tv
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf
> Of
>> SAMARTH
>> Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 8:55 AM
>> To: 'Dane Newman'; 'Joseph Brunner'
>> Cc: 'Isabella Figarella'; 'Gregory Gombas'; 'Sadiq Yakasai'; 'Andy';
> 'Luan
>> Nguyen'; 'Brian Dennis'; 'Cisco certification'
>> Subject: RE: CCIE on Trial at NetworkWorld
>>
>> Ethan needs to be supported against baseless attacks. I remember how
>> I
> was
>> attacked by an unknown person personally few weeks before for raising
> my
>> voice against a vendor.
>> Anyways truth always triumphs. Hope everything will get sorted.
>>
>> Best Wishes.
>> SAMARTH
>> CCIE #18535
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf
> Of Dane
>> Newman
>> Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 2:36 PM
>> To: Joseph Brunner
>> Cc: Isabella Figarella; Gregory Gombas; Sadiq Yakasai; Andy; Luan
> Nguyen;
>> Brian Dennis; Cisco certification
>> Subject: Re: CCIE on Trial at NetworkWorld
>>
>> I must also agree and support Ethan on this.
>>
>> He did the work. It is documented. Certguard just wants to make a
> name for
>> themsevles attacking someone so well known as Ethan.
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 1:10 AM, Joseph Brunner
> <joe@affirmedsystems.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> what are they attacking him for? sure he was a little slow on
>>> getting
> it
>> (I
>>> tracked his progress against mine :-)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I failed a few times, I think he passed on the first try.. so that
> proves
>>> slow and steady works. how could they attack him?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Certgard needs to get a life (and a graphic designer, and web
> designer).
>>> their home page lacks credibility.and aesthetic quality.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _____
>>>
>>> From: Isabella Figarella [mailto:gigi.ccie@gmail.com]
>>> Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 1:01 AM
>>> To: Joseph Brunner
>>> Cc: Gregory Gombas; Sadiq Yakasai; Andy; Luan Nguyen; Brian Dennis;
> Cisco
>>> certification
>>> Subject: CCIE on Trial at NetworkWorld
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The 2 guys at Certguard who claim to have "years of experience" are
>>> attacking Ethan Banks. I read their bull and visited their site.
> They
>> are
>>> lamers who need to rattle chains to be heard. I guess everyone
>>> needs
>> their
>>> 15 minutes of fame.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> They imply years of experience it looks like a year of experience
>>> and barely have any hits on their forum except their own.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> So how to fix it? Attack Ethan Banks the top CCIE Blogger. Anyone
> else
>>> think this is just wrong?
>>>
>>>
>>>
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