From: Hoogen (hoogen82@gmail.com)
Date: Wed Jun 04 2008 - 20:33:32 ART
Yep seperate LAN and WAN teams are common, but the worst is when I have to
work with these idiots to get information to troubleshoot. One team always
blames the other of the problem. Another example was fights between network
and server team. One company where I helped deploy the Cisco content switch
there was a fight between the server team and the network team, to whom
according to them is going to manage the CSS box. Since Cisco is a
networking company the server team didn't want to manage the box, but since
the box was primarily dealing with server load balancing the network didn't
want to manage the box. It was plain BS.
Coming back to pay rates, it is getting pretty tough and consulting is
always a good way to earn good money. But there are a lot of people who work
in the US with visas that require the company employing them to sponsor it.
And most of these guys may only be earning about 100K, they are pretty good
but they have to do this since a lot of companies won't sponsor their visa
or GC.
Brad there are people with triple CCIE's along with voice too in the Bay
area, but they can't shift their jobs because all the companies do not
sponsor the work visa. So I would say there are people available who are
highly skilled but there are other problems as well. If you can take care of
it, I am sure people would love to work for your company. The cost of this
is additionally only about 20K (one time) but I don't understand why
companies are not open to this.
Hmm.. about the location, I personally would love to shift from the Bay
area.. It really hits you hard when you think that 35% of your money is gone
in taxes. Any suggestions on places where you could afford a house and two
cars and live above average life.. someone said Texas.. I probably should
look at that.
-Hoogen
On 6/4/08, Gregory Gombas <ggombas@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> True that! Staff aug sucks. Staff aug in a company where one
> department configures the router and another configures the switch
> sucks even harder...
>
> On 6/4/08, Joseph Brunner <joe@affirmedsystems.com> wrote:
> > real consulting buddy. not staff augmentation
> >
> > I just got to teach myself last night how to do exchange backups using
> > Symantec with GRT after fixing database corruption! I got to save the day
> > just using my CCIE jedi mindtricks and google. I never touched it
> before...
> >
> > Oh, yeah, and how cbac works with sip.
> >
> > This never gets old...
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Gregory Gombas [mailto:ggombas@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 11:16 AM
> > To: Morris, Jason L.
> > Cc: Joseph Brunner; Jonathan Greenwood II; Tony Varriale; Dane Newman;
> Brad
> > Ellis; Chris Gray; ccielab@groupstudy.com
> > Subject: Re: CCIE payrate in Los Angeles
> >
> > Great point! I'm more than happy to take their money so I can sit
> > around in "standby mode".
> >
> > My only concern is that my skills will atrophy after a few years of doing
> > this.
> >
> > Does anyone know of an environment where you can use at least 50% of
> > your skills 90% of the time?
> >
> > I miss my old NOC days. The pay was crap but the job was exciting and
> > you got recognition for saving the day...
> >
> > On 6/4/08, Morris, Jason L. <Jasmorris@checkngo.com> wrote:
> > > From my perspective, they pay big bucks to have someone set around and
> > > configure switch ports so that when the shit hits the fan that person
> is
> > > already there. Having someone who knows what they're doing minimizes
> > > down time, day to day operation doesn't require that level of skill but
> > > as a company when you need that level of skill you need it now.
> > >
> > > An old boss once told me 'I expect 10% out of you 90% of the time, but
> > > the other 10% of the time I expect 150% of what someone else can give
> > > me.' and I think that's where the value comes from.
> > >
> > >
> > > Jason Morris
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf
> Of
> > > Gregory Gombas
> > > Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 10:23 AM
> > > To: Joseph Brunner
> > > Cc: Jonathan Greenwood II; Dane Newman; Brad Ellis; Chris Gray; Tony
> > > Varriale; ccielab@groupstudy.com
> > > Subject: Re: CCIE payrate in Los Angeles
> > >
> > > I don't care how big a cut the middleman is taking, as long as I get a
> > > fat paycheck at the end of the week!
> > >
> > > My point is, why bust my ass getting Master certified, when I can't
> > > find a company that will use even a tenth of my current skills?
> > >
> > > I often laugh at the laundry list of job requirements recruiters send
> > > me, knowing full well I wouldn't be working on half of those
> > > technologies....
> > >
> > > I'm curious - if I get master certification, will I then move up to
> > > creating vlans?
> > >
> > >
> > > On 6/4/08, Joseph Brunner <joe@affirmedsystems.com> wrote:
> > > > Middlemen (staff augmentation "Consulting" firms, head hunters,
> > > recruiters,
> > > > gold partners)
> > > >
> > > > All want to sell their clients the *best*. If this year's best is a
> > > guy a
> > > > who is a "master architect" instead of a "internet expert", well all
> > > the
> > > > better.
> > > >
> > > > >Many employers are quite content at paying a CCIE big bucks to
> assign
> > > > >IP addresses and configure switch ports all day!
> > > >
> > > > Learn how the game works.... someone is making money off you...
> > > remember,
> > > > what Chris Rock said "Shaq is rich, the guy who signs Shaq's checks
> is
> > > > WEALTHY!!!"
> > > >
> > > > If you are the *direct* full time employee at a company disregard
> > > this...
> > > > If you are making X per your, rest assured you are being billing out
> > > 1.5x to
> > > > 5x (or more) per hour for your services....
> > > >
> > > > I met someone who worked for Uncle Sam. Some defense contractor staff
> > > > augmentation firm (like Lockheed Martin, etc) was billing him out at
> > > $600
> > > > per hour!!!!
> > > >
> > > > So if a CCIE is sitting there changing speed and duplex on switch
> > > ports all
> > > > day, its so some guy can make his $$$ on his connections USING your
> > > ass!
> > > >
> > > > Don't forget that.
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Gregory Gombas [mailto:ggombas@gmail.com]
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 9:43 AM
> > > > To: Jonathan Greenwood II
> > > > Cc: Joseph Brunner; Dane Newman; Brad Ellis; Chris Gray; Tony
> > > Varriale;
> > > > ccielab@groupstudy.com
> > > > Subject: Re: CCIE payrate in Los Angeles
> > > >
> > > > I'm kind of chiming in late here, but why would companies demand a
> > > > certification more elite than the CCIE when most companies I have
> > > > worked for don't even utilize a fraction of the CCIE's skill set?!?
> > > >
> > > > Many employers are quite content at paying a CCIE big bucks to assign
> > > > IP addresses and configure switch ports all day!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 6/3/08, Jonathan Greenwood II <gwood83@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > I don't think the CCIE Certification is anywhere on the ropes.
> > > There's
> > > > > roughly only 20K that's walked this planet to receive this
> > > certification
> > > > > since the the program started in the Mid 90's. That's still not
> > > > > enough Certified to go around the globe compared to the # of
> > > Company's and
> > > > > networks that are out there.
> > > > >
> > > > > Eventually there will be alot of senior guys retiring within the
> > > next
> > > > 10yrs
> > > > > or so possibly unless they just can't give it up. But a new
> > > generation
> > > > will
> > > > > need to pickup where the pioneers have laid the ground work such as
> > > a
> > > > young
> > > > > buck like myself. I think the CCDE and CCMA are place for these
> > > veterans
> > > > to
> > > > > move into as the technology grows to my understanding of what Cisco
> > > > intends
> > > > > to call the "MASTER" vs "Expert"
> > > > >
> > > > > Jonathan
> > > > >
> > > > > On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 1:26 PM, Joseph Brunner
> > > <joe@affirmedsystems.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > No.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Bad idea...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The cert is already distracted and diluted by all the others
> > > things
> > > > (CCDE,
> > > > > > CCMA, etc on the horizon).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > My clients all ask me "are you going to go for the CCDE". The
> > > masses in
> > > > IT
> > > > > > know the bar has already been raised, and that the CCIE is now on
> > > the
> > > > > > ropes...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -Joe
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On
> > > Behalf Of
> > > > > > Dane
> > > > > > Newman
> > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 2:04 PM
> > > > > > To: Brad Ellis
> > > > > > Cc: Chris Gray; Tony Varriale; ccielab@groupstudy.com
> > > > > > Subject: Re: CCIE payrate in Los Angeles
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Anyone else think they need to make the CCIE for the different
> > > topics a
> > > > > > different?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Such as..
> > > > > >
> > > > > > CCVE = Cisco Certified Voice Expert
> > > > > > CCSE = Cisco Certifed Security Expert
> > > > > > CCRSE = Cisco Certified Routing and Switching Expert
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ect...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If you tell someone your a CCIE they kinda automatically assume
> > > your
> > > > > > routing
> > > > > > and switching
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And yeah please update the voice lab as Brad said.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 12:53 PM, Brad Ellis <brad@ccbootcamp.com
> >
> > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > I concur with that. We are looking to hire an additional CCIE
> > > Voice,
> > > > and
> > > > > > > it's taking a while to find one. It's pretty easy to get an R&S
> > > CCIE
> > > > > > > engineer these days (from a staffing perspective). R&S CCIE is
> > > still
> > > > in
> > > > > > > great demand, but voice is in even more demand - especially due
> > > to the
> > > > > > > number of Voice CCIEs that are out there. The only issue I have
> > > with
> > > > the
> > > > > > > whole Voice CCIE track, is that Cisco is still testing on 4.1.
> > > All of
> > > > > > > our deployments these days are 6.1. Anyone who >HAD< a 4.1, has
> > > > already
> > > > > > > upgraded to 5.x or 6.x. I don't have any customers who are
> > > running
> > > > 4.1.
> > > > > > > Hopefully the CCIE lab exam will soon change to reflect
> > > this...BEN? :)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > thanks,
> > > > > > > Brad Ellis
> > > > > > > CCIE#5796 (R&S / Security)
> > > > > > > CCSI# 30482
> > > > > > > CEO / President
> > > > > > > CCBOOTCAMP - A Cisco Sponsored Organization (SO)
> > > > > > > Email: brad@ccbootcamp.com
> > > > > > > Toll Free: 877-654-2243
> > > > > > > International: +1-702-968-5100
> > > > > > > Sydney, Australia: +61 2 8080 2725
> > > > > > > Toronto, Canada: +1-416-238-0441
> > > > > > > Skype: skype:ccbootcamp?call
> > > > > > > FAX: +1-702-446-8012
> > > > > > > YES! We take Cisco Learning Credits!
> > > > > > > Training And Remote Racks: http://www.ccbootcamp.com
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On
> > > Behalf
> > > > Of
> > > > > > > Chris Gray
> > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 9:27 AM
> > > > > > > To: 'Tony Varriale'; ccielab@groupstudy.com
> > > > > > > Subject: RE: CCIE payrate in Los Angeles
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Its not that much better here in the UK. I have years of
> > > experience
> > > > > > > (Started
> > > > > > > for MFS Datanet in 1994). Have worked on stacks of kit most of
> > > which
> > > > has
> > > > > > > gone (netedge, Xyplex, Bay, GDC, Cascade, Wellfleet, Stratacom)
> > > which
> > > > is
> > > > > > > why
> > > > > > > I am working for this CCIE. Need to keep up with Cisco.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > But in the UK, its hard to get a job in engineering. Pre sales
> > > is not
> > > > a
> > > > > > > problem, but if you want to walk into an MPLS engineering role,
> > > at a
> > > > > > > decent
> > > > > > > salary rate (#75K and above) its almost impossible.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I engaged a silver partner a few weeks back, they are offering
> > > #65K
> > > > for
> > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > pre sales role, but must have CCIE.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I had a recruitment 'consultant' tell me that CCIE R&S is
> > > common, it s
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > CCIE VOICE I should have. Do these people realise what we put
> > > > ourselves
> > > > > > > through to get this certification? I bet it s a dam site more
> > > than
> > > > they
> > > > > > > go
> > > > > > > through to become a self labelled 'consultant'!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Anyway, Keep up the good work!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > KRIZ
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On
> > > Behalf
> > > > Of
> > > > > > > Tony
> > > > > > > Varriale
> > > > > > > Sent: 03 June 2008 16:06
> > > > > > > To: ccielab@groupstudy.com
> > > > > > > Subject: RE: CCIE payrate in Los Angeles
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I would rather be in OH at that pay rate. $110k in LA is
> tough.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Tony
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On
> > > Behalf
> > > > Of
> > > > > > > Morris, Jason L.
> > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 9:43 AM
> > > > > > > To: R.S. CCIE; Joseph Brunner
> > > > > > > Cc: ccielab@groupstudy.com
> > > > > > > Subject: RE: CCIE payrate in Los Angeles
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I have no idea what the market in LA is like. I live in
> > > Cincinnati
> > > > and
> > > > > > > was just looking at a 'cost of living calculator', the numbers
> > > you
> > > > guys
> > > > > > > are throwing out are way low for the market here. According to
> > > CNN
> > > > > > > Money 110k in LA is worth just a little over 67k in Cincinnati.
> > > I've
> > > > > > > got 2 guys on my team who just got their CCNA since joining the
> > > > company
> > > > > > > that are making that.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Is the market in LA really that bad? If so I'll never bitch
> > > about
> > > > being
> > > > > > > stuck in the Midwest ever again.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Jason Morris
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On
> > > Behalf
> > > > Of
> > > > > > > R.S. CCIE
> > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 2:51 AM
> > > > > > > To: Joseph Brunner
> > > > > > > Cc: ccielab@groupstudy.com
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: CCIE payrate in Los Angeles
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > :-(
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > That really hurts ...... Ouch!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 11:40 PM, Joseph Brunner
> > > > > > > <joe@affirmedsystems.com>
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > You don't find a job at all
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Walk through a big data center all those cabinets/cages
> > > there are
> > > > a
> > > > > > > lot
> > > > > > > > of smart hungry tech guys out of work right now
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > You are not alone .
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > -Joe
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ------------------------------
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > *From:* R.S. CCIE [mailto:r.s.cciestudy@gmail.com]
> > > > > > > > *Sent:* Tuesday, June 03, 2008 2:34 AM
> > > > > > > > *To:* Tony Schaffran (GS)
> > > > > > > > *Cc:* Joseph Brunner; Roger; ccielab@groupstudy.com
> > > > > > > > *Subject:* Re: CCIE payrate in Los Angeles
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > What is the worst case scenario though? That is what I like
> to
> > > know
> > > > > > > .....
> > > > > > > > :-)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Sun, Jun 1, 2008 at 10:03 AM, Tony Schaffran (GS) <
> > > > > > > > groupstudy@cconlinelabs.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > A CCIE with no experience, you would be lucky to get $90K
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Tony Schaffran
> > > > > > > > Network Analyst
> > > > > > > > CCIE #11071
> > > > > > > > CCNP, CCNA, CCDA,
> > > > > > > > NNCDS, NNCSS, CNE, MCSE
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > www.cconlinelabs.com
> > > > > > > > Your #1 choice for online Cisco rack rentals.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > > From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com]
> On
> > > Behalf
> > > > > > > Of
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Joseph Brunner
> > > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 12:35 AM
> > > > > > > > To: 'Roger'; ccielab@groupstudy.com
> > > > > > > > Subject: RE: CCIE payrate in Los Angeles
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I was joking friend...
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > So we do agree!
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I just finished a 28 hour marathon network overhaul and I'm
> > > home
> > > > > > > firing up
> > > > > > > > dynamips. Don't let your skill set get weakened, even for a
> > > few
> > > > hours
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > sleep.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I was offered a whopping $112k a year for my Jedi skills in
> > > NYC just
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > other day... the economy is $@&ked! That was at a fortune 25
> > > > > > > company!!!!
> > > > > > > > There are like 1000's of CCIE's out of work... Citigroup,
> Bear
> > > > Sterns,
> > > > > > > > BofA,
> > > > > > > > Wachovia, Merrill Lynch, Morgan, Hedge funds, these guys are
> > > > bleeding
> > > > > > > cash
> > > > > > > > and are dropping IT engineering staff like there's no
> > > tomorrow...
> > > > lots
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > smart guys with no dojo looking for work right now...
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > That's about $2800 every two weeks after taxes... that MIGHT
> > > fill up
> > > > > > > my gas
> > > > > > > > tank, and put a few groceries in my house... LOL
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Guys, hit the books harder than ever if you want to swim
> > > through the
> > > > > > > next 3
> > > > > > > > or 5 years...
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > -Joe
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > > From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com]
> On
> > > Behalf
> > > > > > > Of
> > > > > > > > Roger
> > > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 3:05 AM
> > > > > > > > To: ccielab@groupstudy.com
> > > > > > > > Subject: RE: CCIE payrate in Los Angeles
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Man I hate to disagree with Joseph (and I don't all that
> > > often)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > If you are brand new CCIE, and I see that you have less then
> 5
> > > years
> > > > > > > exp
> > > > > > > > in large-mid size networks I won't pay better then 110-125
> > > (with
> > > > > > > bonus).
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I have seen about 3-7 CCIE's recent in about the high 18xxx's
> > > &
> > > > > > > 19xxx's
> > > > > > > > they've been able to answer CCIE questions however their real
> > > world
> > > > > > > > problem solving has made me offer them much less. Reason: if
> > > they do
> > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > have a wide breath of experience (2 of them never worked on
> > > Cat65XX)
> > > > > > > > more time in training and supporting them will be required
> > > from
> > > > > > > team/me.
> > > > > > > > We had one that said he had worked a lot of 6509's and was a
> > > nice
> > > > guy
> > > > > > > so
> > > > > > > > I took him to our server room as part of the interview and
> > > asked him
> > > > > > > > about some of the gear as I pointed it out. He couldn't tell
> > > me
> > > > which
> > > > > > > > blade in the 6509 was the sup.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > HOWEVER if you are going to work for a cisco vendor (gold
> > > silver
> > > > etc)
> > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > you have 6+ years, then Joseph is about right, well I hope he
> > > is =)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Good Journey!
> > > > > > > > Roger
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > -------- Original Message --------
> > > > > > > > > Subject: RE: CCIE payrate in Los Angeles
> > > > > > > > > From: "Joseph Brunner" <joe@affirmedsystems.com>
> > > > > > > > > Date: Sat, May 31, 2008 10:49 pm
> > > > > > > > > To: "'R.S. CCIE'" <r.s.cciestudy@gmail.com>, "'Cisco
> > > > certification'"
> > > > > > > > > <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > $140,000 with 20% bonus in writing.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Anything less and I'll say lance Armstrong has more cajones
> > > than
> > > > > > > you, LA
> > > > > > > > > cabronito Vato!
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > > > From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com]
> > > On
> > > > Behalf
> > > > > > > Of
> > > > > > > > R.S.
> > > > > > > > > CCIE
> > > > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 1:04 AM
> > > > > > > > > To: Cisco certification
> > > > > > > > > Subject: CCIE payrate in Los Angeles
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > What would be the minimum offer (as an employee) should a
> > > brand
> > > > new
> > > > > > > CCIE
> > > > > > > > > accept without hurting the CCIE prestige ? And this brand
> > > new CCIE
> > > > > > > only
> > > > > > > > has
> > > > > > > > > experience on 2600, 3800 routers.....etc. No experience on
> > > those
> > > > BIG
> > > > > > > > horses.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > Subscription information may be found at:
> > > > > > > > > http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > Subscription information may be found at:
> > > > > > > > > http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________________________________
> > > > > > > > Subscription information may be found at:
> > > > > > > > http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________________________________
> > > > > > > > Subscription information may be found at:
> > > > > > > > http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________________________________
> > > > > > > > Subscription information may be found at:
> > > > > > > > http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________________________________
> > > > > > > Subscription information may be found at:
> > > > > > > http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________________________________
> > > > > > > Subscription information may be found at:
> > > > > > > http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________________________________
> > > > > > > Subscription information may be found at:
> > > > > > > http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________________________________
> > > > > > > Subscription information may be found at:
> > > > > > > http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________________________________
> > > > > > > Subscription information may be found at:
> > > > > > > http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > _______________________________________________________________________
> > > > > > Subscription information may be found at:
> > > > > > http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > _______________________________________________________________________
> > > > > > Subscription information may be found at:
> > > > > > http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > _______________________________________________________________________
> > > > > Subscription information may be found at:
> > > > > http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________________________________
> > > Subscription information may be found at:
> > > http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________________________________
> > Subscription information may be found at:
> > http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
>
>
> _______________________________________________________________________
> Subscription information may be found at:
> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
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