From: Joseph Brunner (joe@affirmedsystems.com)
Date: Sun Apr 13 2008 - 22:51:55 ART
"The type of person who will need a bootcamp to get
them motivated to approach greatness, is not same type
of person who has such a strong self-starter they can
just stay at home, save the money and show the
discipline to be great on their own."
.....is nothing short of elitist"
>we live in an elitist world. Get used to it.
>going from making a lousy $100k a year to real money is
>elitist too, would you agree? Hence why we study so damn hard...
>You can be bootcamper and ask your boss for a raise every year
>when gas prices go up, or you can get smart and make your own
>way in the world. Frankly, I don't have time for the first option.
"Someone lit your fire and nurtured your zest for learning. I have yet to
meet a single person who has done it completely "on their own", without
anyone else to teach them, push them, or just to support them in their
efforts"
>Ok, I'll admit; Yup a slimeball (who will remain nameless) told me
>and I quote...
>"well we'll get you in for the day to day, but we have a CCIE
>for the design and build out". That was 13 months ago.
>I don't take classes, just use google, the doc cd, and the cli
>BTW:
>God bless all the men and women who are in Iraq, or have come back with
>injuries physical and mental. Triple bless all those who have given all for
>us to be here writing these posts.
-Joe
-----Original Message-----
From: Joshua [mailto:jnccia@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 9:26 PM
To: 'Joseph Brunner'; 'Ramy Sisy'; 'Cisco certification'; 'Paul Cosgrove'
Subject: RE: ********
I agree with some of what you have stated. Except that
bootcamps are great if it is understood that there are
limitations to what a bootcamp will provide. For me,
they are a great way to ramp up and use as a launch pad
for further studies. Or, find the weaknesses that I
have in my understanding of the technologies. It is no
different than going to a regular university.
Regardless of what you learn in class, you still have
much work to do. Bootcamps alone will not make you a
CCIE. However, having a bad instructor or labs that
that don't work because there were poorly developed,
not validated, or better yet, copied from somewhere
else without verification, will definitely slow your
butt down. A great instructor will help clarify the
misunderstanding of the various technologies, close the
gap, help give you direction and even nudge you when
you are tired.
This statement,
"The type of person who will need a bootcamp to get
them motivated to approach greatness, is not same type
of person who has such a strong self-starter they can
just stay at home, save the money and show the
discipline to be great on their own."
.....is nothing short of elitist.
There many reasons why a person may need the bootcamp.
Time is a huge factor for most people's busy lives.
They may be circumstances or problems in life that are
too great to try to simultaneously pursue CCIE studies.
How about deployment to Iraq? How about
re-acclimation to civilian world after three years in
the freakin' desert? How about a divorce after 15 years
of marriage once home from Iraq? Will that knock you
off your "will" to keep studying for a CCIE? Did you
obtain a four year degree on your own or did you go to
school? If you did get a degree, did you ever proclaim
to your professors that you did not need take their
class? You can do it on your own, right?
Bootcamp or university; both require more work, and
most of the time, they need to go that extra ten miles.
And just like any professor at an university, a good
bootcamp instructor can only bring you so far. They
rest is on the student. But, usually, it is the
professor that can or will show the way, correct,
direct, instruct and/or light that fire in a student to
help find that motivation to want to learn and know
more. Or just simply to show that many things are
possible. Maybe what I should have done to prove my
ability to be great is simply study all of the required
courses from the university on my own without attending
class, stay at home, saved the money and just take the
exams. Then I would be great, no? At least according
your type of measurement of what makes a person great.
I do agree on another point, having taught CCNP courses
myself eight years ago..... many of the people that
came to a bootcamp did not care about the how's and
why's, the do's and donts, and are not able to explain
what was really going on. They just wanted to know only
what was required to pass and obtain the cert. I have
always believed that if you cannot effectively and
efficiently troubleshoot a problem, then what good is
the certification? What good are you as a net-engineer
or administrator? That being said, I believe that most
people really want to learn as much as they possibly
can.
One thing is for sure, you did not become "great" on
your own. Someone lit your fire and nurtured your zest
for learning. I have yet to meet a single person who
has done it completely "on their own", without anyone
else to teach them, push them, or just to support them
in their efforts. And if you are as good as you
profess, then teach others not only what you know, but
how to get there and be a mentor. Not an elitist.
Sometimes a person is just simply looking for someone
to believe in them just enough to really get going.
It is easier to be a monk on a mountain, than it is to
be one among the common person.
Which one are you?
-----Original Message-----
From: nobody@groupstudy.com
[mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of Joseph
Brunner
Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 4:40 PM
To: 'Joshua'; 'Ramy Sisy'; 'Cisco certification'
Subject: RE: ********
I'm not going to trash the bootcamps...
But I will say this about them... the money is better
spent on actual lab
attempts...
D@R6Y has been to ALL the bootcamps in the world (from
what I can tell) and
sorry D@R6Y, he STILL hasn't passed yet...
In regards to Cert Science, you can't make a person
into CCIE in 6 weeks.
You can't guarantee someone is smart enough to pass the
lab, or disciplined
enough to come back to it if they fail the lab.
I am a CCNP instructor. I make my own workbooks. Many
people who have passed
the written and are already CCNP's are unable to do
them. Why? One guy said
he was just going for the lab, and now is taking my
CCNP class in 2 weeks.
A person has to commit to being great. The type of
person who will need a
bootcamp to get them motivated to approach greatness,
is not same type of
person who has such a strong self-starter they can just
stay at home, save
the money and show the discipline to be great on their
own.
I started teaching to find excellent people for my
Consulting firm. Then I
realized, wait, I am what I am because I didn't go to
bootcamps. I taught my
self discipline while banging away at the CLI for
thousands of hours and
making notes the last 8 years. I have taught over 100+
people Cisco since
05/2007. Only 2 people (SO FAR) exhibit the patience
and discipline to do
what I do (show up and take control of a network,
document it, fix it,
explain what you are doing). So the Jury is still out
on whether training is
worth the time of the INSTRUCTOR.
So let's forget about bootcamps on this board. Let's
just talk about the
technology.
-----Original Message-----
From: nobody@groupstudy.com
[mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
Joshua
Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 4:14 PM
To: 'Ramy Sisy'; 'Cisco certification'
Subject: ********
Searching for a good CCIE boot camp is no different
than searching for a good university or advanced degree
program to which to attend. Many schools just simply
have stronger programs and have a much better
reputation than most others. Bottom line is that the
student is just going to have to do their homework to
figure out which to attend. Depending on the school of
choice, the student may have to do more work at one
school versus another. And like most schools, there
are professors that very highly respected and maybe
even become a trusted mentor for many students. Then,
there are the "other" professors who just plain suck
and you are left with questioning just how in the hell
that person made it through the vetting process.
Chances are, it is because of that one professor that
will slow your progress. CCIE boot camp/schools and
instructors are no different. Some are just damn
awesome, while others will essentially drive a stake
into the ground through your foot.
$Nar--bik" was banned because former students were
commenting about the high quality of his classes.
But, from what I have seen on GS, certainly not any
more than formers students who have attended competing
boot camps. What made $Dar**by's situation different
was that he posted daily reports while attending
*Nar-B-iks class. He was giving a daily account of
**Narb-ik's professionalism, abilities as an
instructor, the quality of his classroom instruction,
curriculum and what topics we covered. This was from a
student's point of view. Grant it, *Darby probably
over did it. *Dar*by knew that he was probably
stepping over the line. But, why ban *&Narb-ik?
I was in *Narb--iks class, alongside *Da---rby, when
*Dar*by was banned by P*aul B@orghese. There is one
thing *Dar*by was right about. When it comes to high
quality hardcore boot camps, *^Nar--bik's class is a
real threat to &^Cert-Scie_nce and several other
companies. I know. I attended the Cer-t-sci-ence boot
camp. Unless you want to be ripped off $8K+, I
wouldn't recommend the program, period. I have also
attended INX and Netmasterclass. *Nar*bi-k, INX and
NetMasterClass are worth every penny. I have never
attended Scott Morris' class, but I have met the man
and he is clearly a hardcore CCIE much like N*ar*bik,
INX, and Netmasterclass. You cannot go wrong with any
of these guys, for the exception of one.
Nonetheless, I have not seen *Nar--bik push his class,
like some others have. I have never seen him attach
huge or sometimes obnoxious signature blocks like some
others. I have not seen *Narbi--k advertise his class
in any way, other than to inform someone to email him
directly, if they had questions about his class. So,
why ban *Narb--ik??? He has contributed to so many
passing their labs by answering so many questions that
others could not do on their own. Just as Scott, Brian
Dennis, Brian McGahan, Bruce Caslow, Bob Sinclair and
several others have done.
*Narb-ik$ had nothing but good things to say about
Scott Morris, Internetwork-experts, and Netmaster's.
He just never had anything to say about C*ert-Sc*ience.
You know; if you don't have anything good to
say..........??? Hmmmmm.... CertScience...... Paul
Borghese...... Ban &Narb**ik....... Has the the
Patriot Act has come to GS....??? I know, I know. That
was a bit much. But still, it does beg for questions
when looking at the motivation for banning *Narb*ik.
Why not ban all instructors from training companies, if
there are so many complaints about this stuff?
Complaints?? The IPExpert, Netmasterclass and
Internetwork Experts have nothing to worry about.
Their reputation precedes them. If others are
threatened by it, then they need to step up the quality
of their CCIE boot camp learning experience, as well as
their level of professionalism. Or better yet, go
beyond the norm. The point of competition is to push
the limits, find better ways and hopefully, increase
the quality of just about anything, including the
learning experience. If a CCIE hopeful asks for
feedback about any persons experience in reference to
any one of the CCIE boot camps, the GS door is going to
open. And it will swing both ways. Former students
are going to chime in. It is the nature of the beast
on this forum.
It seems to me that if you want to create a forum for
pure CCIE studies, without this adolescent bickering
crap, then simply dis-allow any form of advertisement
or promotion altogether. Including the *CertScience
signature automatically attached to the bottom of the
GS emails. If it cannot be stopped, then try to
control it via a solution. GS is and has been the
largest CCIE forum in the world. So, why not let it
pay for itself. Paid advertisements??? Maybe a banner
or set of links at the bottom of all GS emails. Anyone
caught advertising or promoting anything beyond the
banner/links, will be kicked off. Simple as that. If
it is too difficult to "police" the forum on this
level, oh well. It is, unfortunately, one of those
problems to which a solution will need to be found.
Or..... just deal with the problem. Hey, just shutdown
GS? Problem solved.
My $.02 worth Wait, now its $.0125.
-----Original Message-----
From: nobody@groupstudy.com
[mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of CCIE
Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 10:15 AM
To: 'Ramy Sisy'; 'ccie girl'; 'Cisco certification'
Subject: RE: OT Darby
What do you mean "Nar---bik is not showing since 18
JAN???
-----Original Message-----
From: nobody@groupstudy.com
[mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of Ramy Sisy
Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 9:59 PM
To: 'ccie girl'; 'Cisco certification'
Subject: RE: OT Darby
Probably he was filtered after his last post "Nar
bik's Bootcamp Chronicles - Day 1".
Also Nar
bik, he is not showing since 18 Jan?!
-----------------------------------------------
Thanks,
Ramy Sisy
CCIE#17321 (Security), CCSI#30417
http://www.linkedin.com/in/RAMYSISY
CCIE Security Content Manager/ Technical Instructor
http://www.CCBOOTCAMP.com
-----------------------------------------------
"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more
complex, and more
violent. It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of
courage - to move in the
opposite direction" Albert Einstein
-----Original Message-----
From: nobody@groupstudy.com
[mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of ccie
girl
Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 2:53 PM
To: Cisco certification
Subject: OT Darby
..is it just me or does anyone else miss Mr Weaver's
input?
I hope he is OK.
Pass the CCIE in six weeks, Guaranteed!
http://www.certscience.com/CCIE
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.4 : Thu May 01 2008 - 08:25:50 ART