From: Scott Vermillion (scott_ccie_list@it-ag.com)
Date: Sun Mar 09 2008 - 23:49:06 ARST
Oh LOL Carl, now *that's* funny - good catch man! A completely unbiased
actor in all of this business here, eh? OMG!!??
-----Original Message-----
From: Carl J Yost Jr [mailto:yostc@sunpenguin.net]
Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2008 5:58 PM
To: Scott Vermillion
Cc: 'Cisco certification'
Subject: Re: Dynagen folks... Here is Cisco's Direct Answer on Dynamips.
"Boson" Michael asking Cisco. I wonder why a "Boson" employee would
ask.. I would rather see countless people learning on Dynamips than a
"Boson" simulator...
Also I use both, I have Scott's exact setup at home and a real rack at
work. I can never tell the two apart...
And who cares about mcseworld ?
Scott Vermillion wrote:
> All,
>
> Much as I hate being dragged down into this discussion, I'm compelled to
> answer this one with a little common sense, which will typically - and
most
> certainly is in this specific case - be lacking from such discussions.
>
> Scenario 1:
>
> I go buy a Mac Mini, a mess of USB-Ethernet converters, and a few USB
hubs.
> I install Dynamips and load a copy of IOS. I then repeat this process 100
> times. I take out a full-page ad in the local paper admonishing
businesses
> not to waste their hard-earned cash on that Cisco junk. I promise to come
> deploy my version of a router running full Cisco IOS instead of true Cisco
> hardware routers.
>
> Scenario 2:
>
> I go buy a Mac Mini, a mess of USB-Ethernet converters, and a few USB
hubs.
> I install Dynamips and load a copy of IOS. I use this to study and to
> learn. I earn my CCIE. I use my newfound status and influence in the
> marketplace to move millions of dollars of Cisco product. I never once
use
> my lab in a production environment and I never profit from any IOS feature
> or capability (in other words, not a single packet of true payload is ever
> moved through my lab - just a bunch of pings, hellos, and neighbor
> establishment and maintenance stuff). Cisco has never lost one dollar
from
> my "illegal use" of IOS. On the other hand, they have profited wildly
from
> the hundreds of Cisco solutions I deploy over the long course of my
career.
>
> It comes down to a common sense interpretation of the word "use."
>
> And if you finally achieve your long-standing goal of forcing the hand of
> the Cisco legal team to issue some statement against Dynamips, what have
you
> accomplished Darby? For one thing, you've earned yourself the wrath of
the
> planet over. You've perhaps prevented thousands of people from earning
> their CCIEs. You've forced people back to spending their lab money on old
> power-hungry junk and in doing so increased global warming,
single-handedly
> raising ocean levels by a full meter, forcing millions from their homes.
> Plague is visited upon the earth. Humanity slowly fades into the annals
of
> the planet's long history. The dinosaurs return to freely roam the land.
> And so until the next big impact from space, we're screwed.
>
> WHAT IS YOU FRIGGIN PROBLEM DUDE?
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Darby Weaver [mailto:darbyweaver@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2008 2:49 PM
> To: Joseph Brunner; 'Scott Vermillion'; 'Cisco certification'
> Subject: OT: RE: Dynagen folks... Here is Cisco's Direct Answer on
Dynamips.
>
> Note: Off-topic
>
> Gentlemen,
>
> The only problem with Dynamips/Dynagen that I can see
> are:
>
> 1. If you are unfamiliar with "issues" on real gear,
> then your "ghosts" might leave you wondering if things
> are what they should be... or not?
>
> 2. There is Cisco IOS Licensing issue:
>
> Read this:
> http://www.mcseworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10039&highlight=dynamips
>
> Here is the actual meaningful text that adds the
> clarification anyone may need:
>
> I have received confirmation from Cisco regarding
> Dynamips: the IOS is not legal to use outside of
> Cisco's hardware chassis.
>
> Contents of e-mail:
>
>
> Quote:
> I am increasingly being asked by members on several
> certification forums whether it is OK to use Cisco's
> IOS using a Dynamips simulator (link:
> http://www.ipflow.utc.fr/index.php/Cisco_7200_Simulator).
> Therefore, I'd like some clarification as to whether
> using Cisco's IOS on Dynamips is allowable according
> to Cisco's licensing terms. I don't believe it is
> allowable, but I would like confirmation one way or
> the other.
>
> From
> http://www.cisco.com/en/US/products/...08088e31f.html:
>
>
> Quote:
> License. Conditioned upon compliance with the terms
> and conditions of this Agreement, Cisco Systems, Inc.
> or its subsidiary licensing the Software instead of
> Cisco Systems, Inc. ("Cisco"), grants to Customer a
> nonexclusive and nontransferable license to use for
> Customer's internal business purposes the Software and
> the Documentation for which Customer has paid the
> required license fees. "Documentation" means written
> information (whether contained in user or technical
> manuals, training materials, specifications or
> otherwise) specifically pertaining to the Software and
> made available by Cisco with the Software in any
> manner (including on CD-Rom, or on-line).
>
> Customer's license to use the Software shall be
> limited to, and Customer shall not use the Software in
> excess of, a single hardware chassis or card or that
> number of agent(s), concurrent users, sessions, IP
> addresses, port(s), seat(s), server(s) or site(s), as
> set forth in the applicable Purchase Order which has
> been accepted by Cisco and for which Customer has paid
> to Cisco the required license fee.
>
> Unless otherwise expressly provided in the
> Documentation, Customer shall use the Software solely
> as embedded in, for execution on, or (where the
> applicable documentation permits installation on
> non-Cisco equipment) for communication with Cisco
> equipment owned or leased by Customer and used for
> Customer's internal business purposes.
>
> End of Quote from Cisco.
>
> -------------------------------------------------
>
> Therefore, it doesn't look like the Cisco IOS can be
> used outside of Cisco's hardware chassis, even within
> a software-based simulator. Am I correct in this? Or
> is this sort of use allowable by Cisco?
>
> I thank you for checking into this matter.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Michael Aldridge
> Senior Content Developer
> Boson Software, LLC
>
>
>
> --- Joseph Brunner <joe@affirmedsystems.com> wrote:
>
>
>> Things that can go wrong with the real gear, and
>> only with the real gear...
>>
>> Will burn your time bad in the real lab to try and
>> fix (loops, bad
>> interfaces, two routers talking together through 3
>> switches over a
>> dot1q-tunnel, etc)
>>
>> I'm not saying you can't learn the technologies on
>> the dynagen, but I'm
>> saying spend some practices sessions on a full 10
>> piece rack.
>>
>> That's all
>>
>> Happy Dynagening...
>>
>> -Joe
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nobody@groupstudy.com
>> [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
>> Scott Vermillion
>> Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2007 12:38 AM
>> To: Cisco certification
>> Subject: RE: Dynagen folks...
>>
>> I am a true Dynamips/Dynagen believer and have built
>> my lab prep "rack"
>> around it/them. Please explain, Joe, how I will
>> fail the CCIE lab
>> because of it ("nothing else can prepare you for the
>> real thing")? What
>> is it about that "feel" that makes the difference
>> (can you go "feel" the
>> routers during the practical? Can you "feel" the
>> routers in that remote
>> rack?)?
>>
>> This has the potential to become the next "CCIE vs.
>> college degree"
>> topic, me thinks. It's probably not a very good use
>> of bandwidth, come
>> to think of it LOL, but I can't resist asking you to
>> elaborate on these
>> seemingly unfounded generalizations. I would prefer
>> that you answer with
>> "I have hardware routers and I also run
>> Dynamips/Dynagen on a machine of
>> sufficient horsepower, and here are the things I can
>> do on the former
>> that I can't do on the latter *that matter in the
>> lab* (i.e. don't tell
>> me about toggling the power switch...yawn...you
>> can't do that in the lab
>> anyway by all accounts I've ever heard).
>>
>> I'll start, going the opposite direction:
>>
>> I run Dynamips/Dynagen on a machine of sufficient
>> horsepower, and I can
>> directly capture traffic from a router interface
>> into a .cap file and
>> scrutinize every one and zero using open source
>> WireShark. When I want
>> to do that w/ physical routers, I have to use
>> Ethernet (no serial) and
>> set up a span port on a switch or put a hub in
>> between the two routers,
>> with a machine running WireShark hanging off of the
>> hub (and I'm
>> obviously in HDX at this point, which means the test
>> environment is
>> different than the non-test environment).
>> Otherwise, I'm limited to only
>> debug. I, of course, acknowledge that you're
>> limited to only debug in
>> the lab, but in your preparation for the lab, it's
>> powerful to have such
>> a tool at your disposal so that you can truly
>> understand what's going on
>> under the hood when you see certain debug output.
>>
>> BTW, I'm told Juniper has this capability to write
>> .cap files on physical
>> routers, but I cannot personall y verify. I have
>> never heard of such a
>> capability on Cisco routers, but I'd love to be
>> proven wrong.
>>
>> There are more, of course, but I've already stated
>> many of them in other
>> recent threads and posts...
>>
>> -------- Original Message --------
>> Subject: Dynagen folks...
>> From: "Joseph Brunner" <joe@affirmedsystems.com>
>> Date: Fri, August 31, 2007 9:53 pm
>> To: "'Cisco certification'"
>> <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
>>
>> Nothing feels as good as the real thing. And else
>> nothing can prepare
>> you
>> for the real thing.
>>
>> (Remember if you only have had sex with a condom,
>> your still a
>> virgin, LOL)
>>
>> Check out the Brian's racks!
>>
>> http://www.affirmedsystems.com/photos/IERACKS.JPG
>>
>> Rack12R6#sh vers
>>
>> Cisco IOS Software, 2800 Software
>> (C2800NM-ADVENTERPRISEK9-M),
>> Version
>> 12.4(13a), RELEASE SOFTWARE (fc1)
>>
>> Technical Support:
>> http://www.cisco.com/techsupport
>>
>> Copyright (c) 1986-2007 by Cisco Systems, Inc.
>>
>> Compiled Tue 06-Mar-07 17:01 by prod_rel_team
>>
>> ROM: System Bootstrap, Version 12.4(13r)T, RELEASE
>> SOFTWARE (fc1)
>>
>> Rack12R6 uptime is 6 hours, 4 minutes
>>
>> System returned to ROM by power-on
>>
>> System image file is
>> "flash:c2800nm-adventerprisek9-mz.124-13a.bin"
>>
>> This product contains cryptographic features and
>> is subject to United
>>
>> States and local country laws governing import,
>> export, transfer and
>>
>> use. Delivery of Cisco cryptographic products does
>> not imply
>>
>> third-party authority to import, export,
>> distribute or use
>> encryption.
>>
>> Importers, exporters, distributors and users are
>> responsible for
>>
>> compliance with U.S. and local country laws. By
>> using this product
>> you
>>
>> agree to comply with applicable laws and
>> regulations. If you are
>> unable
>>
>> to comply with U.S. and local laws, return this
>> product immediately.
>>
>> A summary of U.S. laws governing Cisco
>> cryptographic products may be
>> found
>> at:
>>
>>
>>
>>
> http://www.cisco.com/wwl/export/crypto/tool/stqrg.html
>
>> If you require further assistance please contact
>> us by sending email
>> to
>>
>> export@cisco.com.
>>
>> Cisco 2811 (revision 53.50) with 196608K/65536K
>> bytes of memory.
>>
>> Processor board ID FTX1101A1Z0
>>
>> 2 FastEthernet interfaces
>>
>> 1 Serial(sync/async) interface
>>
>> 1 Virtual Private Network (VPN) Module
>>
>> DRAM configuration is 64 bits wide with parity
>> enabled.
>>
>> 239K bytes of non-volatile configuration memory.
>>
>> 253160K bytes of USB Flash usbflash1 (Read/Write)
>>
>> 62720K bytes of ATA CompactFlash (Read/Write)
>>
>> Configuration register is 0x2142 (will be 0x2102
>> at next reload)
>>
>>
>>
>>
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