From: Scott Vermillion (scott_ccie_list@it-ag.com)
Date: Sun Mar 09 2008 - 19:30:17 ARST
All,
Much as I hate being dragged down into this discussion, I'm compelled to
answer this one with a little common sense, which will typically - and most
certainly is in this specific case - be lacking from such discussions.
Scenario 1:
I go buy a Mac Mini, a mess of USB-Ethernet converters, and a few USB hubs.
I install Dynamips and load a copy of IOS. I then repeat this process 100
times. I take out a full-page ad in the local paper admonishing businesses
not to waste their hard-earned cash on that Cisco junk. I promise to come
deploy my version of a router running full Cisco IOS instead of true Cisco
hardware routers.
Scenario 2:
I go buy a Mac Mini, a mess of USB-Ethernet converters, and a few USB hubs.
I install Dynamips and load a copy of IOS. I use this to study and to
learn. I earn my CCIE. I use my newfound status and influence in the
marketplace to move millions of dollars of Cisco product. I never once use
my lab in a production environment and I never profit from any IOS feature
or capability (in other words, not a single packet of true payload is ever
moved through my lab - just a bunch of pings, hellos, and neighbor
establishment and maintenance stuff). Cisco has never lost one dollar from
my "illegal use" of IOS. On the other hand, they have profited wildly from
the hundreds of Cisco solutions I deploy over the long course of my career.
It comes down to a common sense interpretation of the word "use."
And if you finally achieve your long-standing goal of forcing the hand of
the Cisco legal team to issue some statement against Dynamips, what have you
accomplished Darby? For one thing, you've earned yourself the wrath of the
planet over. You've perhaps prevented thousands of people from earning
their CCIEs. You've forced people back to spending their lab money on old
power-hungry junk and in doing so increased global warming, single-handedly
raising ocean levels by a full meter, forcing millions from their homes.
Plague is visited upon the earth. Humanity slowly fades into the annals of
the planet's long history. The dinosaurs return to freely roam the land.
And so until the next big impact from space, we're screwed.
WHAT IS YOU FRIGGIN PROBLEM DUDE?
-----Original Message-----
From: Darby Weaver [mailto:darbyweaver@yahoo.com]
Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2008 2:49 PM
To: Joseph Brunner; 'Scott Vermillion'; 'Cisco certification'
Subject: OT: RE: Dynagen folks... Here is Cisco's Direct Answer on Dynamips.
Note: Off-topic
Gentlemen,
The only problem with Dynamips/Dynagen that I can see
are:
1. If you are unfamiliar with "issues" on real gear,
then your "ghosts" might leave you wondering if things
are what they should be... or not?
2. There is Cisco IOS Licensing issue:
Read this:
http://www.mcseworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10039&highlight=dynamips
Here is the actual meaningful text that adds the
clarification anyone may need:
I have received confirmation from Cisco regarding
Dynamips: the IOS is not legal to use outside of
Cisco's hardware chassis.
Contents of e-mail:
Quote:
I am increasingly being asked by members on several
certification forums whether it is OK to use Cisco's
IOS using a Dynamips simulator (link:
http://www.ipflow.utc.fr/index.php/Cisco_7200_Simulator).
Therefore, I'd like some clarification as to whether
using Cisco's IOS on Dynamips is allowable according
to Cisco's licensing terms. I don't believe it is
allowable, but I would like confirmation one way or
the other.
From
http://www.cisco.com/en/US/products/...08088e31f.html:
Quote:
License. Conditioned upon compliance with the terms
and conditions of this Agreement, Cisco Systems, Inc.
or its subsidiary licensing the Software instead of
Cisco Systems, Inc. ("Cisco"), grants to Customer a
nonexclusive and nontransferable license to use for
Customer's internal business purposes the Software and
the Documentation for which Customer has paid the
required license fees. "Documentation" means written
information (whether contained in user or technical
manuals, training materials, specifications or
otherwise) specifically pertaining to the Software and
made available by Cisco with the Software in any
manner (including on CD-Rom, or on-line).
Customer's license to use the Software shall be
limited to, and Customer shall not use the Software in
excess of, a single hardware chassis or card or that
number of agent(s), concurrent users, sessions, IP
addresses, port(s), seat(s), server(s) or site(s), as
set forth in the applicable Purchase Order which has
been accepted by Cisco and for which Customer has paid
to Cisco the required license fee.
Unless otherwise expressly provided in the
Documentation, Customer shall use the Software solely
as embedded in, for execution on, or (where the
applicable documentation permits installation on
non-Cisco equipment) for communication with Cisco
equipment owned or leased by Customer and used for
Customer's internal business purposes.
End of Quote from Cisco.
-------------------------------------------------
Therefore, it doesn't look like the Cisco IOS can be
used outside of Cisco's hardware chassis, even within
a software-based simulator. Am I correct in this? Or
is this sort of use allowable by Cisco?
I thank you for checking into this matter.
Best regards,
Michael Aldridge
Senior Content Developer
Boson Software, LLC
--- Joseph Brunner <joe@affirmedsystems.com> wrote:
> Things that can go wrong with the real gear, and
> only with the real gear...
>
> Will burn your time bad in the real lab to try and
> fix (loops, bad
> interfaces, two routers talking together through 3
> switches over a
> dot1q-tunnel, etc)
>
> I'm not saying you can't learn the technologies on
> the dynagen, but I'm
> saying spend some practices sessions on a full 10
> piece rack.
>
> That's all
>
> Happy Dynagening...
>
> -Joe
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nobody@groupstudy.com
> [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
> Scott Vermillion
> Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2007 12:38 AM
> To: Cisco certification
> Subject: RE: Dynagen folks...
>
> I am a true Dynamips/Dynagen believer and have built
> my lab prep "rack"
> around it/them. Please explain, Joe, how I will
> fail the CCIE lab
> because of it ("nothing else can prepare you for the
> real thing")? What
> is it about that "feel" that makes the difference
> (can you go "feel" the
> routers during the practical? Can you "feel" the
> routers in that remote
> rack?)?
>
> This has the potential to become the next "CCIE vs.
> college degree"
> topic, me thinks. It's probably not a very good use
> of bandwidth, come
> to think of it LOL, but I can't resist asking you to
> elaborate on these
> seemingly unfounded generalizations. I would prefer
> that you answer with
> "I have hardware routers and I also run
> Dynamips/Dynagen on a machine of
> sufficient horsepower, and here are the things I can
> do on the former
> that I can't do on the latter *that matter in the
> lab* (i.e. don't tell
> me about toggling the power switch...yawn...you
> can't do that in the lab
> anyway by all accounts I've ever heard).
>
> I'll start, going the opposite direction:
>
> I run Dynamips/Dynagen on a machine of sufficient
> horsepower, and I can
> directly capture traffic from a router interface
> into a .cap file and
> scrutinize every one and zero using open source
> WireShark. When I want
> to do that w/ physical routers, I have to use
> Ethernet (no serial) and
> set up a span port on a switch or put a hub in
> between the two routers,
> with a machine running WireShark hanging off of the
> hub (and I'm
> obviously in HDX at this point, which means the test
> environment is
> different than the non-test environment).
> Otherwise, I'm limited to only
> debug. I, of course, acknowledge that you're
> limited to only debug in
> the lab, but in your preparation for the lab, it's
> powerful to have such
> a tool at your disposal so that you can truly
> understand what's going on
> under the hood when you see certain debug output.
>
> BTW, I'm told Juniper has this capability to write
> .cap files on physical
> routers, but I cannot personall y verify. I have
> never heard of such a
> capability on Cisco routers, but I'd love to be
> proven wrong.
>
> There are more, of course, but I've already stated
> many of them in other
> recent threads and posts...
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Dynagen folks...
> From: "Joseph Brunner" <joe@affirmedsystems.com>
> Date: Fri, August 31, 2007 9:53 pm
> To: "'Cisco certification'"
> <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
>
> Nothing feels as good as the real thing. And else
> nothing can prepare
> you
> for the real thing.
>
> (Remember if you only have had sex with a condom,
> your still a
> virgin, LOL)
>
> Check out the Brian's racks!
>
> http://www.affirmedsystems.com/photos/IERACKS.JPG
>
> Rack12R6#sh vers
>
> Cisco IOS Software, 2800 Software
> (C2800NM-ADVENTERPRISEK9-M),
> Version
> 12.4(13a), RELEASE SOFTWARE (fc1)
>
> Technical Support:
> http://www.cisco.com/techsupport
>
> Copyright (c) 1986-2007 by Cisco Systems, Inc.
>
> Compiled Tue 06-Mar-07 17:01 by prod_rel_team
>
> ROM: System Bootstrap, Version 12.4(13r)T, RELEASE
> SOFTWARE (fc1)
>
> Rack12R6 uptime is 6 hours, 4 minutes
>
> System returned to ROM by power-on
>
> System image file is
> "flash:c2800nm-adventerprisek9-mz.124-13a.bin"
>
> This product contains cryptographic features and
> is subject to United
>
> States and local country laws governing import,
> export, transfer and
>
> use. Delivery of Cisco cryptographic products does
> not imply
>
> third-party authority to import, export,
> distribute or use
> encryption.
>
> Importers, exporters, distributors and users are
> responsible for
>
> compliance with U.S. and local country laws. By
> using this product
> you
>
> agree to comply with applicable laws and
> regulations. If you are
> unable
>
> to comply with U.S. and local laws, return this
> product immediately.
>
> A summary of U.S. laws governing Cisco
> cryptographic products may be
> found
> at:
>
>
>
http://www.cisco.com/wwl/export/crypto/tool/stqrg.html
>
> If you require further assistance please contact
> us by sending email
> to
>
> export@cisco.com.
>
> Cisco 2811 (revision 53.50) with 196608K/65536K
> bytes of memory.
>
> Processor board ID FTX1101A1Z0
>
> 2 FastEthernet interfaces
>
> 1 Serial(sync/async) interface
>
> 1 Virtual Private Network (VPN) Module
>
> DRAM configuration is 64 bits wide with parity
> enabled.
>
> 239K bytes of non-volatile configuration memory.
>
> 253160K bytes of USB Flash usbflash1 (Read/Write)
>
> 62720K bytes of ATA CompactFlash (Read/Write)
>
> Configuration register is 0x2142 (will be 0x2102
> at next reload)
>
>
>
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