From: Gary Duncanson (gary.duncanson@googlemail.com)
Date: Sun Mar 09 2008 - 15:26:17 ARST
Edward,
You have made some good points but an outpouring of passers in 3 or 2 months
is stretching it a bit. So far as getting through the CCIE in a few months
is concerned, it does happen but I doubt most that achieve that are exactly
starting from zero. While experience isn't a requirement for CCIE if you are
hot off the press from CCNP or working fulltime on configuration or an
instructor with substantial experience you could fast track the CCIE. But
even then you still need to put in plenty of labtime in to do it. I can see
how 40+ hours a week for a few months could put you over the top if you have
significant background, ideally time off to do it or at least leeway from
your employer. On the other hand if you are full on at work and can't take
the time off that sort of schedule may work against you.
The CCIE process is still worthwhile for many reasons you point out. Without
it my career has moved along just fine, but the process I go through to
persue it, the things I have learned and the awareness and appreciation of
the possibilities have helped in many ways that while difficult to quantify
have manifest themselves in solutions to problems in the field over many
years.
Many managers do indeed have no idea how tough the CCIE is but thankfully
not all. Some are indeed weenies, but they will nevertheless be pulling on
the network guy to understand all this 'stuff' even though many get no
training in it.
Regards
Gary
----- Original Message -----
From: "Edward Balow" <ebalow@hotmail.com>
To: "Wink" <dwinkworth@wi.rr.com>; "Joseph Brunner"
<joe@affirmedsystems.com>
Cc: "'Himawan Nugroho'" <hnugroho@gmail.com>; "'groupstudy'"
<ccielab@groupstudy.com>; <comserv@groupstudy.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2008 3:37 PM
Subject: RE: How to Become a CCIE v2
> No, the CCIE isn't going to guarantee anybody anything. But then again,
> what
> is? There are folks with PhDs from MIT who can't find jobs. Or top tier
> MBA
> graduate flipping burgers at McDonalds.
>
> I seem to remember most people on the board going after the CCIE more for
> the
> challenge than the reward. Of course that doesn't cover everybody, but if
> you
> were one of those people, maybe you should consider if you were being
> honest
> with yourself.
>
> I absolutely have a better understanding of networks now. I also believe
> I
> have more job security. When I survived the dotcom implosion around 2002,
> it
> was colleagues, not certifications, that pulled me through. One of the
> quotes
> I remember from that time was, "CCIEs had to take CCNP level jobs". So
> what
> kinds of jobs were left for the CCNPs and CCNAs?
>
> Many managers have no idea how tough the CCIE is. But then again, can you
> blame them? Lately there seems to be an outpouring of posts on people
> passing
> the CCIE in 3, or even 2 months. How many people have completed their
> Master's degrees in two months? If it was accredited, I'll bet the answer
> is
> 0.
>
> And of course there's the obscene notion comparing the CCIE to a PhD.
> Exactly
> what substantial original research was required to pass the lab exam?
>
> Like a degree, the CCIE opens the door. It's up to you do make it happen
> once
> you get to that point. There are jobs on Monster that say, "CCIE
> required".
> You can apply for those jobs now, where you couldn't before. They don't
> say,
> "Be the first to respond with the CCIE and the job is yours, guaranteed".
>
> If you're looking for a great job with incredible pay, you do have some
> options. Go to med school and become a surgeon, and hope the malpractice
> fees
> don't go up too much more over the next few years. Of course $250,000 in
> student loans is a little more of an investment than $10-15,000 for CCIE
> studies. Or invent the next big thing on the web, like the facebook,
> google,
> and youtube pioneers did.
>
> Just my thoughts,
>
> Ed Balow
> CCIE #20152
>
>> Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2008 08:54:11 -0500> From: dwinkworth@wi.rr.com> To:
> joe@affirmedsystems.com> CC: hnugroho@gmail.com; ccielab@groupstudy.com;
> comserv@groupstudy.com> Subject: Re: How to Become a CCIE v2> > HAHAHAHA.>
> >
> This is so true. Is it me, or is there just no regard at all lately for >
> networking or network engineers?> > Being a CCIE makes you a glorified NOC
> person it seems, in the eyes of > so many managers. > > Sometimes I'm not
> sure
> what the point of doing it was.> > Derick> CCIE #15672> > Joseph Brunner
> wrote:> >> Passing the elite level and world's toughest certification from
> Cisco> >> Systems> >> > >> > Would this be the one they are walking away
> from
> to create the CCDE, CCMA,> > and CCOT (operating thetan?)> >> > And the
> same
> one that lately employers hold in line with the CCNA> >> > "Must be CCIE,
> or a
> strong CCNA" (see dice, 2 weeks ago)> >> > Just checking, because before I
> add
> my stars to my shoulder bars, I was just> > Asking for feedback...> >> >
> Joe,>
>> CCMS (master skeptic)> >> >> >> > -----Original Message-----> > From:
> nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of> >
> Himawan
> Nugroho> > Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2008 12:27 AM> > To: groupstudy;
> comserv@groupstudy.com> > Subject: How to Become a CCIE v2> >> > Hi
> everyone,>
>> I hope I don't just waste everyone's bandwidth.> > I made the new version
>> of
> "How to Become a CCIE" (v2) and hopefully> > it's useful for CCIE
> candidates.
> You may want to check the following> > as well:> >> > How to Become a CCIE
> v2
> @ amazon - with the list of some books I read> > during CCIE SP
> preparation:>
>> http://www.amazon.com/gp/richpub/syltguides/fullview/RLUWDJWTD4FN2/> >> >
> How to Become a CCIE @ amazon - with list of some books I used during> >
> CCIE
> Security preparation (the original how-to version, may be> > outdated,
> written
> on Feb 2006):> >
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/richpub/syltguides/fullview/BYNHY05D4X84/> >> >
> Summary of the journey in passing 3 CCIE labs:> >
> http://brokenpipes.blogspot.com/2007/09/triple-ccie-history-in-making.html>
> >>
>> The very first post I made after passing the last lab:> >
> http://brokenpipes.blogspot.com/2007/08/triple-ccie.html> >> >> >
> Regards,> >
> Himawan Nugroho> >> >> > How to Become a CCIE v2> >> > Passing the elite
> level
> and world's toughest certification from Cisco> > Systems, tips from
> someone
> who has done it three times> > By Himawan Nugroho, CCIE#8171 (R&S,
> Security,
> SP)> > Inevitable -- http://brokenpipes.blogspot.com> >> > I was digging
> through my own blog archive and found that my first post> > about How to
> Become a CCIE is quite old and need to get updated. In> > fact, I'm
> thinking
> to modify it in such a way so the same principle> > should be applied to
> any
> CCIE tracks, and even to any top level> > certification from other vendor.
> Without any intention to re-invent my> > own writing, I just put the
> updates
> and I tried to make it short this> > time. So if you'd like to read more
> about
> my experience taking the lab> > 3 times, I suggest you to read the
> original
> version and all related> > posts, starting with the summary of my
> journey.> >>
>> Btw, in case you haven't noticed I'm trying to learn how to sell by> >
>> using
> marketing hypes, hence the words "elite level", "world's> > toughest" and
> "from someone who has done it three times" yeah, right> > :)> >> > 1. You
> still need to ask yourself "what's the point?"> > It's still a very tough
> challenge. It's still a long and tiring> > process. You will spend lots of
> efforts and money to get it. You still> > need to sacrifice your spare
> time
> and social life. So you should have> > at least one good reason why you
> want
> to do CCIE. And don't try to> > fake the reason. No one can give you the
> answer and I bet no one other> > than you really cares what it is. But
> it's
> important for you because> > this might be the only thing that can keep
> you
> going, that can wake> > you up from your laziness, that can make you come
> out
> from your> > frustration in the middle of your journey.> >> > Once you
> know
> and believe in your reason, then decide which track you> > want to
> pursuit.
> Follow your heart, do only the track you like.> > Continue with collecting
> the
> information about that specific track:> > read the CCIE blueprint for both
> written and lab exam. Read Networkers> > slides to get a brief picture
> about
> the exam format and sample of the> > question (Yes they have a session for
> this, I remember I read and> > listened to the presentation conducted by
> CCIE
> SP proctors).> >> > 2. Use the mid-level certification> > Now the step for
> all
> CCIE tracks are very clear and they all have> > mid-level certification
> (except CCIE storage). So if you want to take> > CCIE in Routing &
> Swithing
> you should learn CCNP. For CCIE Service> > Provider you should start with
> CCIP. For Voice it's CCVP. And for> > Security it's CCSP (the new Security
> lab
> doesn't require extensive> > knowledge of routing & switching anymore, you
> may
> check its blueprint> > v2). Remember, using this mid-level certification
> doesn't mean you> > have to pass it.> >> > If you are one of the guys who
> wrote me email to say that> > certification is useless, want to take CCIE
> just
> to prove how good you> > are, doesn't want to waste time with CCNA,
> CCNP/IP/SP/VP then it's> > fine. Don't take the exam but you can still
> utilize
> the resources to> > plan your study. The base knowledge for CCIE is
> already
> covered in the> > mid-level certification. So do the obvious and follow
> the
> flow: read> > the books for the mid-level of track you want to pursuit
> even
> you> > don't have to take the exam. Passing the mid-level exam is
> important> >
> just as a review to ensure you have really understood the material> >
> covered
> by the certification. And you may want to get your knowledge> > to some
> extend
> to be certified by Cisco that can be considered a> > reward in your
> journey
> even you haven't completed it.> >> > 3. A new way to build your home lab>
> >
> Practice extensively in the lab is still the key to pass CCIE. But for> >
> certain tracks, R&S and SP, you can practice CCIE lab without having> >
> any
> real equipments. I have built a step-by-step guidance to do this> > with
> dynamips. Dynamips is a very popular emulator for Cisco IOS and> > now
> some
> people have released several front-end interface such as> > dynagen or
> GNS3 to
> make it easier to setup and build the topology.> > It's an emulator to
> provide
> real router environment that can trick the> > real Cisco IOS so it will
> boot
> in normal PC. So it's still need the> > real Cisco IOS software, and
> please
> don't ask me to send you this.> >> > Many people still wrote me email
> asking
> this question: is it possible> > to pass CCIE only with dynamips? Yes, it
> is.
> I have seen some of my> > friends did this. In fact, I did all my practice
> for
> CCIE SP only with> > (censored), something similar as dynamips. Censored =
> internal info to> > Cisco employees heheh. I'm planning to take the top
> level>
>> certification from other vendor (guess who :)) using a similar> >
>> emulator
> only. I want to do it just to utilize my spare time, to prove> > my point
> here, and obviously for fun.> >> > You may still require to build home
> lab, or
> rent it online, for other> > CCIE tracks.> >> > 4. Passing written test
> still
> doesn't prove anything> > This is still the same point as my original
> post.
> You can read the> > written exam blueprint and compare it with the lab.
> Take
> the written> > test and feel its coverage. Then setup your lab after that,
> start> > doing the workbook, and feel the difference. For some tracks,
> studying> > for written test doesn't add any value for the lab
> preparation.>
>>> > For me, I don't count the step to pass written test as part of my> >
> checklist to pass the lab. After you pass written exam, you are> >
> eligible to
> register for the lab. And that's what it's all about.> > Passing written
> test
> doesn't mean you are half-CCIE. It doesn't mean> > you are 20% or even 10%
> ready to take the lab. I count it as Step 0.> > >From the written test you
> should start practicing in the lab and build> > the percentage of your
> progress. Use the lab blueprint as your> > guidance. Once you cover 100%
> in
> the list then you may be ready for> > your first attempt. Well, this is
> not
> always the case. I covered only> > 80% and passed in my first attempt. But
> don't count on my experience!> >> > So my point here is: never count
> passing
> written test as part of your> > CCIE lab preparation. Just look at it as
> administrative step required> > to register for the lab.> >> > 5. Read,
> read
> and read, then practice> > I won't list all the books that I read to
> prepare
> for all my CCIE> > labs. They are just so many of them! And sometime you
> just
> need to> > read few chapters from one book. The must-read book list is
> different> > for every track and may not updated. But you can start by
> checking on> > the book list from CCIE website. If you think it's still
> too
> much,> > then I suggest you to again use the Lab Exam Blueprint as your> >
> guidance. Read about one scope of technology at a time. Read from CCO,> >
> since this is Cisco certification so it always makes sense to check> > the
> configuration guide and technical tips from their website.> > Material
> from
> Networkers (slides with sound) is still a good resource,> > and I think
> you
> can get this from Networkers Online.> >> > Google is always our best
> friend.
> And you may be interested to> > subscribe for online books library such as
> Safari Books online. Check> > the list of their books first before you
> pay!
> The benefit of reading> > from a website like Safari is they provide a
> google-seach to find> > specific topic you want to read from several
> books.>
>>> > 6. Fast and Furious may not the trend anymore> > Indeed you still need
> the speed in typing. I guess it will be> > difficult to pass CCIE if you
> still
> use only two fingers to type and> > always look at your keyboard when you
> do
> so. There is just not enough> > time! But it was a different experience
> when I
> did my R&S and Security> > with my SP lab. In the first two, there are
> many
> independent> > technology that I can skip to come back later on if I don't
> know the> > answer. So my strategy at that time was to answer all
> questions
> that I> > know the obvious answers first. Then I went back to answer some
> of
> the> > questions that I'm not too sure about it. And the rest of the time
> was>
>> to answer all questions that I have no clue, and I used to depend on> >
> Documentation CD or restricted CCO documentation websites to find the> >
> answers. So normally I tried to complete 70-80% of the lab before> >
> lunch,
> since I know I need to spend many hours to read from> > documentation CD.>
> >>
>> But in SP, it was a different story. Many topics are connected to> >
>> another
> topics, many topics are built based on another topics as> > underlying
> protocol, and all decision we make to answer one topic may> > affect our
> answer for the topic we build on top of it. So the strategy> > that works
> for
> me at that time was "do it once, and do it right". I> > needed to make
> sure I
> had answered the question correctly before I> > moved to the next question
> (unless it's independent feature that I can> > skip). Even I can type IOS
> command quite fast but at that time I had> > only 1 hour left to re-check
> my
> work. And documentation CD is not our> > best friend anymore in SP lab.
> There
> is no time to read it and> > actually to be able to build a working
> topology
> all topics covered in> > the lab must be understood thoroughly, unless
> it's
> related to features> > or enhancements.> >> > 7. Join the community> >
> There
> is no doubt about this. Learn from others' experience and share> > your
> own
> experience. Check the archive for all previous discussions.> > Answer the
> questions in the forum in order to get the answers for your> > questions
> to
> the forum. Build a healthy discussion forum! Respect each> > other and
> always
> think those people who are willing to answer are not> > getting paid for
> that
> so don't be rude and push to get answers (unless> > you join a commercial
> forum or the forum that is created by vendor to> > answer your questions
> related to the product/workbook you purchase> > from them).> >> > Same as
> what
> I wrote in my original post, it would be good if you can> > build a small
> discussion forum in your area that can meet offline.> > It's always better
> to
> have someone to share your frustration or> > listening for someone's
> experience to boost the spirit while having> > coffee together. CCIE is a
> one-man-journey type of experience but as I> > said in the original post,
> I
> was happy just to know there were others> > out there who might be doing
> the
> same thing and facing the same> > challenges. You are not the only one,
> even
> you are alone who must open> > the door, Neo.> >> > 8. Asking the right
> question is an art> > Try to ask some silly questions or obvious questions
> that any CCIE lab> > proctors are not allowed to answer are not
> recommended.
> They are there> > in the lab to clarify the question, and sometime they
> can
> provide you> > hints to the answer. So use this chance wisely because you
> don't want> > the proctors mark your face in his brain as someone who asks
> him
> the> > answer for CCIE lab.> >> > More into that, I think it's really good
> to
> build a culture on how to> > ask a question effectively. I received many
> emails asked me how to> > become a CCIE even now still working on CCNA?
> That's
> easy, pass your> > CCNA first! Or I have seen some people throw one line
> question to the> > forum: how can I configure MPLS VPN? Why don't you
> spend a
> little bit> > of your time to read the website, use google, RTFM, try it
> in
> your lab> > and when you are really stuck you can send your specific
> question
> with> > all required information such as the config and topology.> >> >
> Learn
> how to ask effectively.> > We all definitely need this even for the life
> outside CCIE lab.> >> > 9. Understand the lab question> > I was not born
> in
> english-speaking country. And even I have spent 6> > years working
> overseas,
> with English as daily business language, it> > was still difficult for me
> to
> understand some of the lab question. For> > my CCIE SP lab all the
> questions
> were straight forward. I went to the> > proctor only because I found some
> vague words and since I know how to> > ask I could even get the hints
> after I
> clarified the words with the> > proctor. So they are there in the lab to
> help
> you to clarify the> > questions. But that's all.> >> > And I found out
> when
> some lab questions are so confusing, it's better> > to sit back and look
> at
> the topology as a whole and a unit. So try to> > understand what we are
> trying
> to build in the lab from helicopter> > view, not from the device or
> configuration perspective. For example,> > when I did my SP lab I looked
> at
> the drawing, read the questions,> > tried to understand what kind of
> network I
> have to build with all> > traffic flow and policy then it became easier
> for me
> when I worked on> > each question to put the configuration.> >> > 10.
> Skeptical attitude might the one you need the most> > Trust no one, trust
> no
> solution. Don't trust the configuration guide> > in Cisco website. Don't
> believe what people say or write in the forum.> > Don't trust the
> configuration and solution written in Ciscopress> > books. Don't even
> trust
> the solution from the vendor for those CCIE> > workbooks that you must pay
> for
> it!> >> > I'm not saying that all those resources are bad and should not
> be> >
> trusted. What I'm trying to say here is you should not trust any> >
> solution
> unless you prove it in your lab. It may work in the book but> > not in
> your
> case because you use different IOS. You may read it and> > think you have
> already understood the technology but then when it> > doesn't work in the
> lab
> only you realize there is a missing part that> > you need to discover. And
> some people either make a typo in their> > solution or answer it with one
> way
> because of some consideration that> > you may not able to see.> >> > So
> never
> stop asking: Why? How come it's possible? Why the solution> > use that
> way?
> What if I answer it with this way? How to prove the> > concept really
> works?
> What if I add this on top of that? How to answer> > this question if I
> modify
> or add with that requirement? And so on.> >> > 11. CCIE is nothing but a
> mind
> game> > You still need to read lots of books. You still need to practice>
> >
> extensively. You still need to make the strategy and plan your study> >
> accordingly. But on top of that, you really need the right mindset and> >
> attitude to pass. Other than being skeptical and consistently test the> >
> solution in the lab, you must be positive most of the time. You should> >
> believe you can achieve your target if you really spend efforts in> >
> doing
> so. Avoid unnecessary discussion and long debate about why you> > need to
> become a CCIE (you should do that in Step 1 above). Leave your> >
> discussion
> group if they keep telling you it's very difficult to pass> > CCIE and you
> won't be able to make it because you don't have what it> > takes to pass.
> Or
> they say you don't have same opportunity as the> > others who can pass.
> Everyone has the same chance to pass. During my> > journey I have proved
> that
> it's not a matter of time, nor it's a> > matter of support from the
> company or
> how many resources you have.> > It's all about the mindset.> >> > And
> other
> than being positive, you should develop ability to be> > adaptable as
> well, to
> make you ready for any surprises in the lab. You> > should know how to
> analyze
> a problem and use the right approach to> > solve it. This is required to
> ensure you can understand the> > requirements in the lab and choose the
> right
> method to answer. You> > need to be able to make decision and handle
> situation
> under pressure> > within limited amount of time. And you don't risk your
> life
> in taking> > this CCIE anyway! So relax, try your best to be prepared,
> extremely> > prepared, but in the end if you make mistakes and fail, you
> lose>
>> nothing but the cost to take the lab. On the other side you will> >
> definitely learn something from your failure and gain more than what> >
> you
> lose.> >> > So again, Everyone has the same chance to pass.> > If someone
> tells you the otherwise, ask him to talk to me ;)> >> > 12. Enjoy every
> moment
> of it> > What's the point to do something if you don't enjoy it? Again,
> this
> is> > the reason why Step 1 is very crucial. It's very important to
> follow> >
> your heart. Because pursuing CCIE requires you to be focus and> >
> consistent,
> so it will be difficult if you don't know why you want to> > do this in
> the
> first place. You must sacrifice your spare time and> > social life so it's
> really important for those around who care to you> > to be part of the
> game.
> Discuss your plan with them and try to still> > make some contact with
> other
> human beings when you are not geeking out> > in the lab.> >> > I remember
> when
> I did my security I still spent some time with my> > family to go to the
> beach, even my mind was in> > Firewall-ACL-to-allow-BGP-traffic-with-NAT
> and>
>> IDS-fine-tuning-to-send-alert-only-after-certain-hits. I sacrificed my> >
> sleep to gain extra time to study. I sacrificed my lunch. I sacrificed> >
> my
> time that I normally used to chit chat with colleagues. But I still> > had
> fun
> doing my lab since at the same time I played the Matrix or the> > Simpsons
> next to my hyperterminal. And not to mention all those Linkin> > Park
> songs
> that I used to play over and over continuously.> >> > And when you are
> preparing for CCIE, be in the moment. Make a 6-months> > study plan but do
> one
> thing at the time. If you haven't passed the> > written then do this as
> Step
> 0. If you haven't setup the lab then> > start reading documentation about
> the
> emulator or search for the> > hardware on ebay. If you must deal with busy
> schedule at work, try to> > have fun by read CCIE material in between your
> busy time or steal some> > time by locking yourself inside the toilet and
> read
> in there (I'm> > still doing this until now!). Feel every aspect of the
> journey. Be> > grateful when you have even a very short time to make
> progress
> in your> > study. And always try to enjoy every moment of it.> >> >> >
> Okay,
> let's say you pass. You may ask: now what?> > Don't ask me. Ask yourself.>
> >>
>> CCIE is just the beginning of a bigger journey. There are several> >
>> other
> CCIE tracks to chase or other exciting things to do in life such> > as
> working
> in large scale project where you have to use all your> > technical skills
> along with your ability to handle much complex> > situation. But frankly
> speaking, until now I still haven't found> > another journey that could
> offer
> such tense atmosphere, learning> > experience, wide coverage of technology
> within short time, and fun all> > together outside CCIE. All the time was
> just
> for me and my lab.> >> > As I wrote in my own post after I passed my 3rd
> lab:>
>> CCIE was the only time when the world makes sense.> >> > Have fun,
> everyone.> >> >
> _______________________________________________________________________> >
> Subscription information may be found at: > >
> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html> >> >
> _____________________________________________________________________> >
> Subscription information: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/comserv.html> >
> _______________________________________________________________________>
> Subscription information may be found at: >
> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> _________________________________________________________________
> Climb to the top of the charts! Play the word scramble challenge with star
> power.
> http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_jan
>
> _______________________________________________________________________
> Subscription information may be found at:
> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.4 : Tue Apr 01 2008 - 07:53:53 ART