From: William Nellis (nellis_iv@yahoo.com)
Date: Tue Nov 06 2007 - 21:02:54 ART
The problem your missing, is that in the networking world, regardless of cert, any new employment will take 6 months plus of investment by your employer before you are fully able to reach critical mass for which you are hired. (many times, > 1 year). Even if you are smart, when you engage in very large networks... tribal knowledge goes a long way. Employers want a semblance of stability when choosing a progeny in which to invest.
So when evaluating candidates, those that hop around a lot... well... they are welcome to hop around a lot. Somewhere else, traditional employers (ISP, large institutions), dont seek that.
There may not be loyalty in the dollar, but employers who invest heavily in their more skilled candidates do seek return on investment. Thats how business works.
I'm not saying it is necesarily wrong to look for employment after getting your cert, my reference was that... in my experience interviewing CCIE and non CCIE candidates, if someone moves around every 1-2 years... it is hard to stomach the 6+ month of investment I have to make to get them up to speed. Strong teams incur natural churn as people develop, but unnecessary churn is not desired. If that is your modus operandi... it doesn't work for higher end tech jobs as it does so well for lower end tech jobs, too much upfront investment by employer.
Also, in traditional employment (non contract)... it is now officially a pain in the rear to get rid of the "mistakes". So, you have to choose wisely when you invest (reference soft skills and team abilities). If the person ends up being a deadweight, he drags down the team. And HR doesn't easily let people go. Which is part of the reason for the outsourcing by firms...
Note, none of this applies to contract work :)
-------------------------------------------------------
r/s
William Nellis IV
nellis_iv@yahoo.com
----- Original Message ----
From: Joseph Brunner <joe@affirmedsystems.com>
To: Jonny English <redkidneybeans@gmail.com>; William Nellis <nellis_iv@yahoo.com>
Cc: Ahsan Mohiuddin <ahsan.mohiuddin@yahoo.com>; tom nohwa <tom.nohwa@gmail.com>; Cisco certification <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2007 2:46:34 PM
Subject: RE: CCIE Important Interview Quesition asked by Sunrise, Swiss
Perfect answer Jonny. And you very well should... this is a market driven
certification. If I worked at Jimmy's Pizza while I was getting an MBA from
Wharton, should I stick around Jimmy's Pizza just because I used his money
for part (albeit a small part) of my tuition?
Nope, its off to NYC or Boston to work for Goldman or State Street.
Just they way it goes...
Move out to move up...
There's no loyalty in the dollar kid
-----Original Message-----
From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
Jonny English
Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2007 3:19 PM
To: William Nellis
Cc: Ahsan Mohiuddin; tom nohwa; Cisco certification
Subject: Re: CCIE Important Interview Quesition asked by Sunrise, Swiss
I think most people look for a job after getting there CCIE, is because it
cost them money, time and some employers don't help with money or time so
after getting a CCIE they decide to get a new job :).
On 11/6/07, William Nellis <nellis_iv@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Most companies don't hire CCIE's. They hire people. Preferably people
> holding CCIE numbers.
>
> Based on my experience, all that number will do in some instances is get
> your foot in the door. You have to seal the deal. No test or degree will
> "Get" you the job. (although, i would expect you to get more calls back if
> you applied for the right jobs within your skill sets... does your resume
> need refining?)
>
> Most CCIE positions at the level companies need will be required to
> interface with "SOMEONE", whether that be a customer, peer, marketing
group,
> whatever. In these instances your business or technical acumen matter more
> than what you did in a lab. Also, most interviewers don't smile upon
someone
> doing a job search directly after obtaining a cert... (except contracting
> companies). Ever wonder, if you get a certification and are seeking
> employment, it means you got a certification and are leaving someone else?
> You do it to one company, you'll do it to others.
>
>
> Rules of life
>
> 1) if it was easy,anyone would do it
> 2) Nobody's going to give you anything
> 3) CCIE number means what you put behind it. If you want that number to
> mean something you need to sell yourself. Companies dont hire numbers,
they
> hire people... (then they give you a number :) )
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------
> r/s
> William Nellis IV
> nellis_iv@yahoo.com
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Ahsan Mohiuddin <ahsan.mohiuddin@yahoo.com>
> To: tom nohwa <tom.nohwa@gmail.com>
> Cc: Cisco certification <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
> Sent: Monday, November 5, 2007 10:07:12 PM
> Subject: Re: CCIE Important Interview Quesition asked by Sunrise, Swiss
>
> Hello Tom,
>
> sad to hear your story. However, I do NOT think that every new CCIE is
> treated that way. The problem you faced is not ccie-specific. After having
a
> number of difficult interviews/ failing to secure a post I have re-modeled
> my view of the corporate world in general, and the hiring process in
> particular. It is easy to feel like "a victim of the cruel world" after
the
> kind of experience you've had but before you fall in that trap, ask
yourself
> the following questions:
>
> 1) Did that company genuinely have a vacancy or were they just going
> through a formal, annual business process requirement?
>
> 2) If the vacancy did exist, had the interviewers already picked their man
> and were just hearing out the remaining ones?
>
> NOTE: If the vacancy is not genuine or they've already picked their man,
> they are likely to give you a shoddy reason for rejecting you, such as
"your
> french is poor" OR "I see, you nearly flunked the Artificial Intelligence
> course in college ! "
>
> 3) If they had NOT picked their man yet when you were interviewed, did
> your personality-type *clicked* with majority of the interviewers? In my
> experience, this is THE most important factor in determining whether or
not
> you will be able to secure the job. The *clicking* happens when they like
> you as a person or would have made friends with you if you met at a party.
>
> 4) If they do *click* with you (or a majority of them does), do they think
> you can handle this job? They will consider both technical and
non-technical
> skills, esp. communication skills in this era of service-orientation.
>
> 5) CCIE is a highly sought after certification in SOME parts of the world.
> You have much higher chances of securing a job based on ccie in growing
> telecom markets such as Australia and the Middle East. However, Its not a
> given that ccie will get you a job in your home country, home state and
home
> town. What it will do is get you a job in most parts of the world.
>
> Wish you luck in future.
>
> - Ahsan
>
>
>
>
> tom nohwa <tom.nohwa@gmail.com> wrote: Hi all,
>
> This is to explain you my job search experience happened in Swiss after
> acquiring my CCIE. I am not sure how many of you have come across similar
> situation.
>
> I started my CCIE journey in the beginning of last year and passed the lab
> a
> few months ago. Later, I started contacting the ISPs, most of them never
> responded. I got an interview from one ISP which is the second largest
> ISP
> (Sunrise) in Swiss. During the interview, they did not ask any tech
> questions, instead they asked whether I would be *able to lift the router
> and fix it in the rack.* I was astonished to hear this question, but I
> said
> I would do it during the emergency situation. Then, I was asked to wait
> for few weeks. Few weeks later, I got the response that my French skill
> was very poor.
>
> I have now the following questions to my fellow experts:
>
> 1. I have seen only the English version of Cisco IOS. Do you know any
> French version?
> 2. Having 10+ years experience in networking and holding a degree in
> networking from the world famous university, I was never asked to answer
> any
> tech question. Instead, question like lifting the router and fixing it in
> the rack, always irritate me. Is this type of question asked to
> irritate/insult the CCIE?
> 3. Is it normal that companies don't respond to an CCIE's job
> applications
> (of course my nationality is mentioned in my CV)?
>
> Please let me know your comments as I hear that CCIEs are highly respected
> everywhere.
>
> Best,
> Joe.
>
> _______________________________________________________________________
> Subscription information may be found at:
> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
> _______________________________________________________________________
> Subscription information may be found at:
> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
> _______________________________________________________________________
> Subscription information may be found at:
> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.4 : Sat Dec 01 2007 - 06:37:28 ART