From: dee tee (dt30083@gmail.com)
Date: Wed Oct 03 2007 - 16:25:27 ART
And the war begins... but at least its a good break away form CBAC and
Multicast.... interesting.. thanks for the break........... now all of you
back to studying....
On 10/3/07, John Jones <acer0001@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Very well said Scott.
>
> Darby, if you put as much studying as you put into this kind of stuff, you
> should the the lead IOS engineer for Cisco by now.
>
> John
>
>
> On 10/3/07, Scott Vermillion <scott_ccie_list@it-ag.com> wrote:
> >
> > Darby,
> >
> > Honestly, you seem to be looking at this through the lens of a college
> > ethics class. That's not how the business world works. Cisco will
> > evaluate
> > this strictly from a bottom line perspective. Nothing more, nothing
> less.
> > It's business.
> >
> > Is Cisco being damaged by this? Please make the case if
> so. Specifically
> > identify where the revenue is lost.
> >
> > Does Cisco stand to gain from this? I have already argued that they do.
> > Again, CCIEs are a boon to Cisco and its products. Think of it - Cisco
> > has
> > to pay to train their internal sales and support staff. Yet there
> stands
> > this group of outside zealots who are willing to put their personal (and
> > sometimes even our professional) lives aside to become masters of all
> > things
> > Cisco...on their own nickel!! And then, having earned the number or at
> > least having come close, they return to industry and set about
> > implementing
> > Cisco solutions left and right. Sure, Juniper might have an equivalent
> > solution, but Cisco is what they know and so Cisco is what they
> > sell/implement.
> >
> > Would it be reasonable for Cisco to insist that Dynamips CCIE candidates
> > purchase IOS as a stand-alone product for study purposes? I think not,
> > although I would do it if that's what it took. The problem is that this
> > would create an elitist scenario, with entire swaths of the planet no
> > longer
> > able to pursue this already outrageously expensive certification (and no
> > doubt Cisco enjoys selling its products just as much in Country A as it
> > does
> > in Country B). BTW, I think if you argue that a Dynamips candidate
> should
> > be forking over cash for IOS, you likely also need to make the argument
> > that
> > a gray market hardware candidate should be doing the same (unless they
> are
> > buying boxes with current code, the correct feature set for study, and
> the
> > license is legally transferable, which I'm not clear that it is). And
> oh
> > by
> > the way, times the number of boxes in each lab! At least with "ghostios
> =
> > true" in Dynamips, I am only putting a single instance of IOS to use, no
> > matter how many router instances I have in my lab topology!
> >
> > You yourself have said you don't use Dynamips. So what are you hoping
> to
> > achieve here, anyway? Stir up a bunch of stink and force Cisco to take
> > some
> > public position, presumably against the use of IOS in Dynamips for
> study?
> > Why? Would you sleep better knowing that you never used Dynamips and
> that
> > now, as a result of your heroic and super ethical stink stirring
> actions,
> > nobody else ever would again either? And as for:
> >
> > >Does anyone find it disturbing that the new generation
> > >of Cisco Certified Wanna-be's are more concerned about
> > >such matters than the exisiting Cisco Certified
> > >Engineers?
> >
> > Perhaps a life in the clergy would better suit some of these new
> wannabes
> > who can't or won't understand the business world for what it really is.
> > Because certainly Cisco has the means to take legal action against any
> > perceived threat they might encounter. So it would seem some of these
> new
> > uber-ethical wannabes are more concerned about Cisco than Cisco. I
> think
> > we
> > can trust them to determine what's in their best interest and what's
> not.
> >
> > Now back to my regularly scheduled Dynamips studies, whether they meet
> > anyone else's moral standards or not...
> >
> > Scott
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
> > Darby Weaver
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 5:54 AM
> > To: Darby Weaver; Joseph Brunner; 'Scott M Vermillion'; 'Cisco
> > certification'
> > Subject: Re: OT: Dynamips - Is it legal to use it with Cisco's IOS for
> > Study?
> >
> > Well,
> >
> > I've got some feedback but none from the people I was
> > hoping to get it from yet.
> >
> > So far the biggest issue with anyone using Dynamips by
> > my estimation is the IOS License Agreement that you
> > click while downloading the IOS saying that you are in
> > possession of and have paid for the IOS you are
> > downloading and are going to use it under the terms of
> > the agreement...
> >
> > Now considering many people find the IOS on the net
> > (kinds black market) and others just ask friends (I've
> > seen the requests on many forums), then those people
> > do not know what I am talking about - since they
> > obviously never agreed to anything.
> >
> > It also seems to me and to others here, that Cisco has
> > turned a blind eye to individuals who are using the
> > latest Cisco IOS's to study and become certified in
> > the usage of the IOS.
> >
> > Cisco even markets the idea of how dedicated CCIE's
> > are to get the coveted CCIE certification and those of
> > us who stil work diligently to get our own CCIE
> > certification or even other certifications at this
> > stage.
> >
> > Now, I guess the issue would be if one actually tried
> > to market a PC with Dynamips and use it to perform as
> > a virtual Cisco Router (all perfomance issues and
> > other issues aside) - I'm not a Dynamips user, but
> > have read where the Dynamips is being used to interact
> > with Cisco Switches at the moment. So I would think
> > this is plausible to some extent if it is not
> > practical in production for any serious networks.
> >
> > From speaking to my local Cisco SE's in the past, I
> > know Cisco frowns on gray market activity as well
> > (resell of Cisco gear), without which many of us hear
> > would not have our own labs or even likely have
> > achieved our own certification status. However, the
> > context of the frown is important - since if one buys
> > gray versus new - it does affect Cisco's bottom line
> > and since their product works for many years past the
> > support (a high quality product) they get what they
> > developed.
> >
> > We are ultimately buying the Cisco IOS as much as or
> > even more than the actual hardware.
> >
> > So there are legal, moral, and ethical imperatives in
> > this question I have sincerely asked.
> >
> > Does anyone find it disturbing that the new generation
> > of Cisco Certified Wanna-be's are more concerned about
> > such matters than the exisiting Cisco Certified
> > Engineers?
> >
> > These are the people who will be working for many of
> > the nation's and the world's top companies. I would
> > think more people would be concerned and would at
> > least someone with authority would take a stand for
> > good or ill, even if it is what none of want to hear.
> >
> > The best we have now is hearsay from the author of
> > Dynamips from an anonymous Cisco employee.
> >
> > So is it ok to use this product - just since Cisco is
> > a big company and we are just the ants in the machine
> > and oversells product or allows product to be oversold
> > but frowns on re-sale?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- Darby Weaver <darbyweaver@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > > At this point you think this question would have
> > > been
> > > answered completely and concisely.
> > >
> > > On a forum I am a member of, some of our members are
> > > concerned about the legality of using Dynamips and
> > > the
> > > IOS and violating the terms of usage of the IOS as
> > > provided by Cisco's copyright or fair usage etc.
> > > Whatever the exact legal language may be.
> > >
> > > A newly formed "watchdog forum" called certguard was
> > > asked about this matter and they consulted the
> > > author
> > > of Dynamips and he gave his response - available on
> > > the certguard forum.
> > >
> > > Now my question is primarily aimed at the vendors
> > > here
> > > since I suspect they have the answer already since
> > > they are offering lab workbooks (one of which I'm
> > > preparing to by at this very moment) and are
> > > generally
> > > condoning and supporting the usdage of Dynamips for.
> > >
> > > I do not mean to sound "out of my mind" by asking
> > > the
> > > question, since obviously this is the best lab prep
> > > tool since a real router came along... and got
> > > affordable on ebay (I do not think Cisco is happy
> > > about that market either - used/gray) but it is a
> > > part
> > > of life now too.
> > >
> > > So here are the questions:
> > >
> > > 1. Are users of Dynamips using the IOS illegally and
> > > against what the IOS was designed to do by using it
> > > with Dynamips?
> > >
> > > 2. Obviously people can do whatever they want in
> > > their
> > > own homes, but are forums and lists like groupstudy,
> > > or even vendors to be considered
> > > ethically-challenged
> > > for condoning and even recommending the usage of
> > > Dynamips in this fashion.
> > >
> > > 3. What is Cisco's official take on the matter?
> > >
> > > It may sound odd to some of us here, but I have a
> > > very
> > > devout group of upcoming networking engineers who
> > > care
> > > very much what Cisco thinks and they do not wish to
> > > be
> > > amoral, nor appear unethical in any way, and while
> > > some really want to use the product, do not want to
> > > publicly create a legal issue for themselves and the
> > > forums/lists they frequent in the future.
> > >
> > >
> > > So if anyone has the definitive answer and I suspect
> > > guys like NetMasterClass, InternetworkExpert and
> > > others who are catering to the use of Dynamips have
> > > already bridged this question and have a firm and
> > > quotable answer from Cisco that is going to be very
> > > satisfactoty.
> > >
> > > Sorry if this has already come up and I missed it,
> > > but
> > > I read GS alot and did not think it passed my eyes
> > > before.
> > >
> > > I must admit that since I own several real racks of
> > > gear and always have at least one fully reachable
> > > from
> > > anywhere on the Internet, this has never been a
> > > question for me, but I am also concerned since I,
> > > too,
> > > am seeing a definate need and place for this
> > > outstanding little tool called Dynamips. And I love
> > > the fact that guys like InternetworkExpert support a
> > > workbook dedicated to it as well.
> > >
> > >
> > > - I know what is this guy thinking at 2:30am in the
> > > morning... I've got an appointment tomorrow that
> > > scares the hell out of me and I'm having trouble
> > > sleeping - no it is not a lab.
> > >
> > > :)
> > >
> > >
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> >
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>
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