From: Gregory Gombas (ggombas@gmail.com)
Date: Tue Sep 25 2007 - 09:35:55 ART
Another thing to keep in mind is that recruiters will down play your
skills as a tactic to get you to accept a lesser position or lesser
salary. They get paid by the placement so even if you are a quad CCIE
and they have a level 1 NOC position to fill they will try to convince
you the CCIE is worthless and the level 1 NOC is a great place to
learn!
Santiamo - I'm with you buddy - if there's no money in it whats the point?
I mean I love the technology, but I love my family more - and when I
see my son's sad eyes because I can't take him to the park because I'm
studying for this f*cking certificaton in breaks my heart...
So to those who say they're in it simply because they love Cisco or
love to learn they are either full of crap or have no social lives...
My $.02
On 9/24/07, darth router <darklordrouter@gmail.com> wrote:
> I had a recruiter tell me last year, that CCIEs were getting paid
> 60k in the area I was, which was a lie. They were in huge demand and
> the average pay was 100-120k US. Nice try, stupid recruiter. They
> forget that we usually know our own markets.
> If US CCIE reseller/shop jobs are paying 60- 80k, its time to jump over to
> Juniper or
> Foundry. Reinvent yourself, move on. The CCIE is a great weapon ciscos
> competition can use as well.
>
> DR
>
> On 9/24/07, Santiamo <ccie@texas.net> wrote:
> >
> > Interesting that you decide when the case is closed. But if you read the
> > email more closely, I referred to HR and recruiters who state that they
> > can
> > recruit a CCIE for about $70K-80K. I did not say that they are actually
> > successful in this effort. That being said, if they are recruiting CCIE's
> > for this range, then it does put into question market viability and
> > sustainability of said certification. At the very least, it may in
> > indicate
> > where it "might" be headed.
> >
> > After an almost three year deployment in Iraq, I see many things have
> > changed. So, I am trying to get a feel for where things are, and it does
> > become frustrating. Especially when it feels as if I am starting over.
> > Thus, if you or anyone else has been offended by my seemingly insulting or
> > moronic questions, then I sincerely apologize. Especially to Narbikk. I
> > am
> > sure that he thought I was smoking crack. Nonetheless, I am studying for
> > the CCIE "NOT" only to prove to myself that I can pass it but to become a
> > better engineer as well. Whether or not I pass the exam, I will become a
> > better quality engineer.
> >
> > Additionally, when someone obtains or attempts to obtain a degree or
> > certification, it is not only about recognition, but about individual
> > career
> > development and future financial sustainability. Accolades are
> > great. But
> > it means nothing if it doesn't pay the bills or helps that person to move
> > forward in the development of their own career. This being said, I would
> > suspect that if respect for the CCIE dropped into the bucket in the I.T.
> > market, not too many people would be attempting to obtain their CCIE.
> >
> > By the way, 120K in New York "CITY", as noted in your previous email, is
> > about 70K-80K when factoring in cost of living, in comparison to Austin,
> > Tx.
> > This is according to several "cost of living" calculators from several
> > different financial websites that factor in ten different "cost of living"
> > indexes. So, I hope the salary you quoted was for city or suburb way
> > outside of NYC.
> >
> > >"We don't get the seven, eight figure bonuses year after year. If you
> > want
> > >that kind of money, pick up a baseball bat and join the majors. Don't
> > come
> > >here and complain about $$$. We all know life is expensive."
> >
> > What a load of pompous philosophical horse crap. No where, did I even
> > infer
> > to making it rich with the CCIE. I responded to the initial emails on the
> > subject and simply asked the asked question about future viability and
> > sustainability of the CCIE. Some would call it business smarts and
> > tactics.
> > I asked about what others see out there in the CCIE market. With today's
> > economy, it is a legitimate question. The last recession this country
> > had,
> > I.T. salaries took a major hit, almost across the board. During serious
> > economic hard times, companies start to re-assess the value of their I.T.
> > staff, and thus the certifications. Financial and economic rebounds are
> > slow.
> >
> > Risk? I understand that everything is a risk. It comes down to accurate
> > assement, viability and mitigation and sometimes a gut feeling. I know
> > risk. More than most.
> >
> > Good luck on your lab attempt. I sincerely hope that you pass, regardless
> > of what you may think of my questions.
> >
> > Santi
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
> > Joseph Brunner
> > Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 4:31 PM
> > To: 'Santiamo'; ccielab@groupstudy.com
> > Subject: RE: Hurry up and get your number before its too late!
> >
> > >My main concern was with market viability of the CCIE and the
> > >misconceptions that HR has about what the CCIE number brings to the
> > table.
> > >It can be very frustrating and at times, deflating. Especially when
> > >the recruiters or HR tell you that they can get a CCIE for 70K-80K.
> >
> > Where are you?
> >
> > Even in the worst parts of the country... are you telling me that is what
> > you're hearing for salary?
> >
> > I see "texas.net" in your email address... Are you telling me in Texas a
> > CCIE is expected to work for 60 to 70k?
> >
> > A CCNA in NYC makes 90k+, a CCNP 110k+, a CCIE 120 to 140k+.
> >
> > I don't know Texas, but I voted for your ex-governor twice! ;)
> >
> > Let's get to the root of the issue you're talking about... I'm confused.
> >
> > Let me understand this, you are under the impression that a CCIE does not
> > earn a respectable pay check where you are, so you are considering not
> > going
> > for it, or if you go for and pass, you're worried you wont get the $$$
> > you're expecting?
> >
> > How's that?
> >
> > Well nothing in life is certain. You could die tomorrow, or on the way
> > home
> > from work today. Your life is a vapor. Nothing you will do may matter
> > after
> > you're gone. If you want the big bucks go be a lawyer or investment
> > banker.
> > I used to argue with NRF a lot in the professional boards. He was right.
> >
> > We don't get the seven, eight figure bonuses year after year. If you want
> > that kind of money, pick up a baseball bat and join the majors. Don't come
> > here and complain about $$$. We all know life is expensive.
> >
> > I just booked my CCIE lab airfare, hotel and rental car again yesterday. I
> > paid for my upcoming lab attempt last week. I'll pass on the next or the
> > 10th attempt. I don't care. I'll make between $0 and $400,000 a year once
> > I
> > pass. Life is risk. If I wanted to have a guarantee I would have went to
> > school and worked for the government.
> >
> > Good luck, case closed.
> >
> > -Joe
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
> > Santiamo
> > Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 4:06 PM
> > To: ccielab@groupstudy.com
> > Subject: RE: Hurry up and get your number before its too late!
> >
> > I think that either I did not accurately convey my concern or there is a
> > issue with translation. Probably my fault.
> >
> > My main concern was with market viability of the CCIE and the
> > misconceptions
> > that HR has about what the CCIE number brings to the table. It can be
> > very
> > frustrating and at times, deflating. Especially when the recruiters or HR
> > tell you that they can get a CCIE for 70K-80K.
> >
> > I was interested in responses from those who have lived it, thus already
> > have had their CCIE's for awhile.
> >
> > As for the comment about looking at this from a cert point of view, I
> > don't
> > think anyone here would even pursue the CCIE, if the IE number only
> > brought
> > you 60K/yr for your efforts. The CCIE is a way of getting the foot in the
> > door. Especially on federal and DOD contracts. Thus, there are those
> > with
> > CCNP level experience willing to bust their butts, study hard and do the
> > work, to get their foot in the door.
> >
> > As Narbikk stated to me at one time, studying hard for the CCIE, even if I
> > don't pass, at the very least, will afford me greater understanding than
> > the
> > CCNP alone.
> >
> > Thanks for the input guys.
> >
> >
> >
> > Santi
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
> > Guyler, Rik
> > Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 7:26 AM
> > To: 'Joseph Brunner'; 'Santiamo'; ccielab@groupstudy.com
> > Subject: RE: Hurry up and get your number before its too late!
> >
> > All true Joe. I think Santiamo is looking at this strictly from a
> > certification perspective rather than a learning experience. Most of us
> > that have been doing this for some time agree that what we learn along the
> > way is really what makes us the "expert" and not the certificate at the
> > end.
> > The certificate is an awesome reward true enough but the real "prize" is
> > the
> > learning experience working towards that.
> >
> > I don't have my certificate yet but learning what I have over years in
> > preparation have made me a much better Engineer than I ever would have
> > been
> > without the experience. And that is worth a nice increase in salary.
> >
> > Rik
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
> > Joseph Brunner
> > Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2007 10:44 PM
> > To: 'Santiamo'; ccielab@groupstudy.com
> > Subject: RE: Hurry up and get your number before its too late!
> >
> > You're wrong...
> >
> > Forget the certification in and of it self. Consider what value knowing a
> > "CCIE" level of knowledge is worth. You need to be an excellent designer,
> > integrator, troubleshooter, and much much more to be worth anything.
> >
> > I have ran on about all the bad people I have worked with over the
> > years...
> >
> > You should at least do it to make sure if you are in the field you have a
> > clue of what you're doing...
> >
> > I solve problems all the time in my consulting arena that because of my
> > CCIE
> > studies are easy and take seconds. Years back they would have taken days
> > or
> > I wouldn't have been able to solve them at all.
> >
> > ;)
> >
> > Joe
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
> > Santiamo
> > Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2007 10:26 PM
> > To: ccielab@groupstudy.com
> > Subject: RE: Hurry up and get your number before its too late!
> >
> > Kind of indicates a market trend or belief that the CCIE is not as viable
> > in todays job market and that it looks to become less viable. Kind of
> > makes
> > me wonder, what would be the point of achieving the CCIE if others believe
> > it is easy or not worth as much?
> >
> > I am studying for my R&S as my first IE attempt, then move on to the
> > Security. I will not move beyond two, since I believe it is not feasible
> > to
> > realistically be an expert beyond two. But, with everything that I have
> > seen on the market and on Groupstudy, I am starting get really discouraged
> > in the pursuit of the CCIE.
> >
> > Any advice from the ones you have been out there for a while?
> >
> > Santi
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
> > Gary
> > Duncanson
> > Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2007 10:31 AM
> > To: WorkerBee
> > Cc: ccielab@groupstudy.com
> > Subject: Re: Hurry up and get your number before its too late!
> >
> > Numbers aside, lots of people survive complex work and responsibilities
> > without the CCIE. They basically want someone with the CCIE who has
> > experience really and this is the yardstick they choose to use. Anyone
> > whizzo who has recently found the time to clear the CCIE need not apply.
> > Any
> > old timers who got laid off the last few years but kept up with recerts
> > can
> > apply.
> >
> > Strange. But I suppose they have their reasons!
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "WorkerBee" <ciscobee@gmail.com>
> > To: "Guyler, Rik" <rguyler@shp-dayton.org>
> > Cc: "Scott Vermillion" <scott_ccie_list@it-ag.com>; "Gregory Gombas"
> > <ggombas@gmail.com>; "Cisco certification" <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
> > Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2007 1:51 AM
> > Subject: Re: Hurry up and get your number before its too late!
> >
> >
> > > What the ads is trying to say is, I want a CCIE with at least 2 years
> > > of being a CCIE after passing the lab exam. numbers < 15000 will at
> > > least have gone through one paper re-certification. Probably, they
> > > should rephrase it as "minimum 2 years of working experience as a
> > > certified CCIE" maybe sounds more pleasant...
> > >
> > > Passing the lab and carrying that number with you with your job is a
> > > massive responsibility. If you can survive that massive number hanging
> > > around the neck for at least 2 years and working in networking related
> > > field with a fairly decent complex work, chances are, you're not a
> > > *fake* paper CCIE. :p
> > >
> > > Sales folks also carry number, so does a CCIE. But the good thing is,
> > > our number never grows year-on-year~ :)
> > >
> > >
> > > On 9/22/07, Guyler, Rik <rguyler@shp-dayton.org> wrote:
> > >> Oooooh...Nrf's gonna get you guys.... ;-)
> > >>
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf
> > >> Of Scott Vermillion
> > >> Sent: Friday, September 21, 2007 4:19 PM
> > >> To: 'Gregory Gombas'; 'Joseph Brunner'
> > >> Cc: 'Cisco certification'
> > >> Subject: RE: Hurry up and get your number before its too late!
> > >>
> > >> Used car salesmen have values??
> > >>
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf
> > >> Of Gregory Gombas
> > >> Sent: Friday, September 21, 2007 2:03 PM
> > >> To: Joseph Brunner
> > >> Cc: Cisco certification
> > >> Subject: Re: Hurry up and get your number before its too late!
> > >>
> > >> Yup - There are a lot of clueless managers who think the CCIE is now
> > >> a lot easier than it was back in the days. These are the same
> > >> ex-engineers who haven't logged into a router in five years.
> > >>
> > >> Can you believe I even had a headhunter tell me once that the CCIE is
> > >> easy now and you can find copies of the lab on the web!!!
> > >> This is coming from someone with little more technical ability and
> > >> the values of a used car salesman!
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On 9/21/07, Joseph Brunner <joe@affirmedsystems.com> wrote:
> > >> > Really?
> > >> >
> > >> > My old boss was like 65XX. Do you think he has a clue about modern
> > >> > qos,
> > >> and
> > >> > what is going on now?
> > >> >
> > >> > I once had to explain to him why we don't use custom queuing for
> > >> > our voip between the offices... ;)
> > >> >
> > >> > The time holding the CCIE doesn't always translate into more years
> > >> > of staying on top. Not all Generals serve in Brian Dennis's, Scott
> > >> > Morris's
> > >> and
> > >> > Nardik's active duty command.
> > >> >
> > >> > Many retreat to arm chair's, bbq's and raising children.
> > >> >
> > >> > I interviewed 89XX back in March. It was as disaster. He was a
> > >> > double IE, R&S/SECURITY. He couldn't tell me how to configure a
> > >> > catalyst switch to support a cisco voip deployment.
> > >> >
> > >> > NO kidding...
> > >> >
> > >> > -----Original Message-----
> > >> > From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On
> > >> > Behalf Of Gregory Gombas
> > >> > Sent: Friday, September 21, 2007 11:11 AM
> > >> > To: Cisco certification
> > >> > Subject: Hurry up and get your number before its too late!
> > >> >
> > >> > Check out this job ad - says they prefer CCIE below 15000. I
> > >> > remember a few years ago they wanted CCIE's below 10000. Next it
> > >> > will be below 20000 - hope I make that threshold!
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >>
> >
> > http://seeker.dice.com/jobsearch/servlet/JobSearch?op=101&dockey=xml/f/6/f6d
> > >> > a82e500534edb88b4d2ab26945b0f@endecaindex&c=1&source=20
> > >> >
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