From: Gary Duncanson (gary.duncanson@googlemail.com)
Date: Tue Sep 25 2007 - 10:20:58 ART
Greg, I love this stuff and I take my kid to the park.
Try and find some time to do that buddy!
My 2 cents!
BR
Gary
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gregory Gombas" <ggombas@gmail.com>
To: "darth router" <darklordrouter@gmail.com>
Cc: "Santiamo" <ccie@texas.net>; "Joseph Brunner" <joe@affirmedsystems.com>;
<ccielab@groupstudy.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 1:35 PM
Subject: Re: Hurry up and get your number before its too late!
> Another thing to keep in mind is that recruiters will down play your
> skills as a tactic to get you to accept a lesser position or lesser
> salary. They get paid by the placement so even if you are a quad CCIE
> and they have a level 1 NOC position to fill they will try to convince
> you the CCIE is worthless and the level 1 NOC is a great place to
> learn!
>
> Santiamo - I'm with you buddy - if there's no money in it whats the point?
> I mean I love the technology, but I love my family more - and when I
> see my son's sad eyes because I can't take him to the park because I'm
> studying for this f*cking certificaton in breaks my heart...
>
> So to those who say they're in it simply because they love Cisco or
> love to learn they are either full of crap or have no social lives...
>
> My $.02
>
>
>
> On 9/24/07, darth router <darklordrouter@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I had a recruiter tell me last year, that CCIEs were getting paid
>> 60k in the area I was, which was a lie. They were in huge demand and
>> the average pay was 100-120k US. Nice try, stupid recruiter. They
>> forget that we usually know our own markets.
>> If US CCIE reseller/shop jobs are paying 60- 80k, its time to jump over
>> to
>> Juniper or
>> Foundry. Reinvent yourself, move on. The CCIE is a great weapon ciscos
>> competition can use as well.
>>
>> DR
>>
>> On 9/24/07, Santiamo <ccie@texas.net> wrote:
>> >
>> > Interesting that you decide when the case is closed. But if you read
>> > the
>> > email more closely, I referred to HR and recruiters who state that they
>> > can
>> > recruit a CCIE for about $70K-80K. I did not say that they are
>> > actually
>> > successful in this effort. That being said, if they are recruiting
>> > CCIE's
>> > for this range, then it does put into question market viability and
>> > sustainability of said certification. At the very least, it may in
>> > indicate
>> > where it "might" be headed.
>> >
>> > After an almost three year deployment in Iraq, I see many things have
>> > changed. So, I am trying to get a feel for where things are, and it
>> > does
>> > become frustrating. Especially when it feels as if I am starting over.
>> > Thus, if you or anyone else has been offended by my seemingly insulting
>> > or
>> > moronic questions, then I sincerely apologize. Especially to Narbikk.
>> > I
>> > am
>> > sure that he thought I was smoking crack. Nonetheless, I am studying
>> > for
>> > the CCIE "NOT" only to prove to myself that I can pass it but to become
>> > a
>> > better engineer as well. Whether or not I pass the exam, I will become
>> > a
>> > better quality engineer.
>> >
>> > Additionally, when someone obtains or attempts to obtain a degree or
>> > certification, it is not only about recognition, but about individual
>> > career
>> > development and future financial sustainability. Accolades are
>> > great. But
>> > it means nothing if it doesn't pay the bills or helps that person to
>> > move
>> > forward in the development of their own career. This being said, I
>> > would
>> > suspect that if respect for the CCIE dropped into the bucket in the
>> > I.T.
>> > market, not too many people would be attempting to obtain their CCIE.
>> >
>> > By the way, 120K in New York "CITY", as noted in your previous email,
>> > is
>> > about 70K-80K when factoring in cost of living, in comparison to
>> > Austin,
>> > Tx.
>> > This is according to several "cost of living" calculators from several
>> > different financial websites that factor in ten different "cost of
>> > living"
>> > indexes. So, I hope the salary you quoted was for city or suburb way
>> > outside of NYC.
>> >
>> > >"We don't get the seven, eight figure bonuses year after year. If you
>> > want
>> > >that kind of money, pick up a baseball bat and join the majors. Don't
>> > come
>> > >here and complain about $$$. We all know life is expensive."
>> >
>> > What a load of pompous philosophical horse crap. No where, did I even
>> > infer
>> > to making it rich with the CCIE. I responded to the initial emails on
>> > the
>> > subject and simply asked the asked question about future viability and
>> > sustainability of the CCIE. Some would call it business smarts and
>> > tactics.
>> > I asked about what others see out there in the CCIE market. With
>> > today's
>> > economy, it is a legitimate question. The last recession this country
>> > had,
>> > I.T. salaries took a major hit, almost across the board. During
>> > serious
>> > economic hard times, companies start to re-assess the value of their
>> > I.T.
>> > staff, and thus the certifications. Financial and economic rebounds
>> > are
>> > slow.
>> >
>> > Risk? I understand that everything is a risk. It comes down to
>> > accurate
>> > assement, viability and mitigation and sometimes a gut feeling. I know
>> > risk. More than most.
>> >
>> > Good luck on your lab attempt. I sincerely hope that you pass,
>> > regardless
>> > of what you may think of my questions.
>> >
>> > Santi
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
>> > Joseph Brunner
>> > Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 4:31 PM
>> > To: 'Santiamo'; ccielab@groupstudy.com
>> > Subject: RE: Hurry up and get your number before its too late!
>> >
>> > >My main concern was with market viability of the CCIE and the
>> > >misconceptions that HR has about what the CCIE number brings to the
>> > table.
>> > >It can be very frustrating and at times, deflating. Especially when
>> > >the recruiters or HR tell you that they can get a CCIE for 70K-80K.
>> >
>> > Where are you?
>> >
>> > Even in the worst parts of the country... are you telling me that is
>> > what
>> > you're hearing for salary?
>> >
>> > I see "texas.net" in your email address... Are you telling me in Texas
>> > a
>> > CCIE is expected to work for 60 to 70k?
>> >
>> > A CCNA in NYC makes 90k+, a CCNP 110k+, a CCIE 120 to 140k+.
>> >
>> > I don't know Texas, but I voted for your ex-governor twice! ;)
>> >
>> > Let's get to the root of the issue you're talking about... I'm
>> > confused.
>> >
>> > Let me understand this, you are under the impression that a CCIE does
>> > not
>> > earn a respectable pay check where you are, so you are considering not
>> > going
>> > for it, or if you go for and pass, you're worried you wont get the $$$
>> > you're expecting?
>> >
>> > How's that?
>> >
>> > Well nothing in life is certain. You could die tomorrow, or on the way
>> > home
>> > from work today. Your life is a vapor. Nothing you will do may matter
>> > after
>> > you're gone. If you want the big bucks go be a lawyer or investment
>> > banker.
>> > I used to argue with NRF a lot in the professional boards. He was
>> > right.
>> >
>> > We don't get the seven, eight figure bonuses year after year. If you
>> > want
>> > that kind of money, pick up a baseball bat and join the majors. Don't
>> > come
>> > here and complain about $$$. We all know life is expensive.
>> >
>> > I just booked my CCIE lab airfare, hotel and rental car again
>> > yesterday. I
>> > paid for my upcoming lab attempt last week. I'll pass on the next or
>> > the
>> > 10th attempt. I don't care. I'll make between $0 and $400,000 a year
>> > once
>> > I
>> > pass. Life is risk. If I wanted to have a guarantee I would have went
>> > to
>> > school and worked for the government.
>> >
>> > Good luck, case closed.
>> >
>> > -Joe
>> >
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
>> > Santiamo
>> > Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 4:06 PM
>> > To: ccielab@groupstudy.com
>> > Subject: RE: Hurry up and get your number before its too late!
>> >
>> > I think that either I did not accurately convey my concern or there is
>> > a
>> > issue with translation. Probably my fault.
>> >
>> > My main concern was with market viability of the CCIE and the
>> > misconceptions
>> > that HR has about what the CCIE number brings to the table. It can be
>> > very
>> > frustrating and at times, deflating. Especially when the recruiters or
>> > HR
>> > tell you that they can get a CCIE for 70K-80K.
>> >
>> > I was interested in responses from those who have lived it, thus
>> > already
>> > have had their CCIE's for awhile.
>> >
>> > As for the comment about looking at this from a cert point of view, I
>> > don't
>> > think anyone here would even pursue the CCIE, if the IE number only
>> > brought
>> > you 60K/yr for your efforts. The CCIE is a way of getting the foot in
>> > the
>> > door. Especially on federal and DOD contracts. Thus, there are those
>> > with
>> > CCNP level experience willing to bust their butts, study hard and do
>> > the
>> > work, to get their foot in the door.
>> >
>> > As Narbikk stated to me at one time, studying hard for the CCIE, even
>> > if I
>> > don't pass, at the very least, will afford me greater understanding
>> > than
>> > the
>> > CCNP alone.
>> >
>> > Thanks for the input guys.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Santi
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
>> > Guyler, Rik
>> > Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 7:26 AM
>> > To: 'Joseph Brunner'; 'Santiamo'; ccielab@groupstudy.com
>> > Subject: RE: Hurry up and get your number before its too late!
>> >
>> > All true Joe. I think Santiamo is looking at this strictly from a
>> > certification perspective rather than a learning experience. Most of
>> > us
>> > that have been doing this for some time agree that what we learn along
>> > the
>> > way is really what makes us the "expert" and not the certificate at the
>> > end.
>> > The certificate is an awesome reward true enough but the real "prize"
>> > is
>> > the
>> > learning experience working towards that.
>> >
>> > I don't have my certificate yet but learning what I have over years in
>> > preparation have made me a much better Engineer than I ever would have
>> > been
>> > without the experience. And that is worth a nice increase in salary.
>> >
>> > Rik
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
>> > Joseph Brunner
>> > Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2007 10:44 PM
>> > To: 'Santiamo'; ccielab@groupstudy.com
>> > Subject: RE: Hurry up and get your number before its too late!
>> >
>> > You're wrong...
>> >
>> > Forget the certification in and of it self. Consider what value knowing
>> > a
>> > "CCIE" level of knowledge is worth. You need to be an excellent
>> > designer,
>> > integrator, troubleshooter, and much much more to be worth anything.
>> >
>> > I have ran on about all the bad people I have worked with over the
>> > years...
>> >
>> > You should at least do it to make sure if you are in the field you have
>> > a
>> > clue of what you're doing...
>> >
>> > I solve problems all the time in my consulting arena that because of my
>> > CCIE
>> > studies are easy and take seconds. Years back they would have taken
>> > days
>> > or
>> > I wouldn't have been able to solve them at all.
>> >
>> > ;)
>> >
>> > Joe
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
>> > Santiamo
>> > Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2007 10:26 PM
>> > To: ccielab@groupstudy.com
>> > Subject: RE: Hurry up and get your number before its too late!
>> >
>> > Kind of indicates a market trend or belief that the CCIE is not as
>> > viable
>> > in todays job market and that it looks to become less viable. Kind of
>> > makes
>> > me wonder, what would be the point of achieving the CCIE if others
>> > believe
>> > it is easy or not worth as much?
>> >
>> > I am studying for my R&S as my first IE attempt, then move on to the
>> > Security. I will not move beyond two, since I believe it is not
>> > feasible
>> > to
>> > realistically be an expert beyond two. But, with everything that I
>> > have
>> > seen on the market and on Groupstudy, I am starting get really
>> > discouraged
>> > in the pursuit of the CCIE.
>> >
>> > Any advice from the ones you have been out there for a while?
>> >
>> > Santi
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
>> > Gary
>> > Duncanson
>> > Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2007 10:31 AM
>> > To: WorkerBee
>> > Cc: ccielab@groupstudy.com
>> > Subject: Re: Hurry up and get your number before its too late!
>> >
>> > Numbers aside, lots of people survive complex work and responsibilities
>> > without the CCIE. They basically want someone with the CCIE who has
>> > experience really and this is the yardstick they choose to use. Anyone
>> > whizzo who has recently found the time to clear the CCIE need not
>> > apply.
>> > Any
>> > old timers who got laid off the last few years but kept up with recerts
>> > can
>> > apply.
>> >
>> > Strange. But I suppose they have their reasons!
>> >
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "WorkerBee" <ciscobee@gmail.com>
>> > To: "Guyler, Rik" <rguyler@shp-dayton.org>
>> > Cc: "Scott Vermillion" <scott_ccie_list@it-ag.com>; "Gregory Gombas"
>> > <ggombas@gmail.com>; "Cisco certification" <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
>> > Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2007 1:51 AM
>> > Subject: Re: Hurry up and get your number before its too late!
>> >
>> >
>> > > What the ads is trying to say is, I want a CCIE with at least 2 years
>> > > of being a CCIE after passing the lab exam. numbers < 15000 will at
>> > > least have gone through one paper re-certification. Probably, they
>> > > should rephrase it as "minimum 2 years of working experience as a
>> > > certified CCIE" maybe sounds more pleasant...
>> > >
>> > > Passing the lab and carrying that number with you with your job is a
>> > > massive responsibility. If you can survive that massive number
>> > > hanging
>> > > around the neck for at least 2 years and working in networking
>> > > related
>> > > field with a fairly decent complex work, chances are, you're not a
>> > > *fake* paper CCIE. :p
>> > >
>> > > Sales folks also carry number, so does a CCIE. But the good thing is,
>> > > our number never grows year-on-year~ :)
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On 9/22/07, Guyler, Rik <rguyler@shp-dayton.org> wrote:
>> > >> Oooooh...Nrf's gonna get you guys.... ;-)
>> > >>
>> > >> -----Original Message-----
>> > >> From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf
>> > >> Of Scott Vermillion
>> > >> Sent: Friday, September 21, 2007 4:19 PM
>> > >> To: 'Gregory Gombas'; 'Joseph Brunner'
>> > >> Cc: 'Cisco certification'
>> > >> Subject: RE: Hurry up and get your number before its too late!
>> > >>
>> > >> Used car salesmen have values??
>> > >>
>> > >> -----Original Message-----
>> > >> From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf
>> > >> Of Gregory Gombas
>> > >> Sent: Friday, September 21, 2007 2:03 PM
>> > >> To: Joseph Brunner
>> > >> Cc: Cisco certification
>> > >> Subject: Re: Hurry up and get your number before its too late!
>> > >>
>> > >> Yup - There are a lot of clueless managers who think the CCIE is now
>> > >> a lot easier than it was back in the days. These are the same
>> > >> ex-engineers who haven't logged into a router in five years.
>> > >>
>> > >> Can you believe I even had a headhunter tell me once that the CCIE
>> > >> is
>> > >> easy now and you can find copies of the lab on the web!!!
>> > >> This is coming from someone with little more technical ability and
>> > >> the values of a used car salesman!
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> On 9/21/07, Joseph Brunner <joe@affirmedsystems.com> wrote:
>> > >> > Really?
>> > >> >
>> > >> > My old boss was like 65XX. Do you think he has a clue about modern
>> > >> > qos,
>> > >> and
>> > >> > what is going on now?
>> > >> >
>> > >> > I once had to explain to him why we don't use custom queuing for
>> > >> > our voip between the offices... ;)
>> > >> >
>> > >> > The time holding the CCIE doesn't always translate into more years
>> > >> > of staying on top. Not all Generals serve in Brian Dennis's, Scott
>> > >> > Morris's
>> > >> and
>> > >> > Nardik's active duty command.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Many retreat to arm chair's, bbq's and raising children.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > I interviewed 89XX back in March. It was as disaster. He was a
>> > >> > double IE, R&S/SECURITY. He couldn't tell me how to configure a
>> > >> > catalyst switch to support a cisco voip deployment.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > NO kidding...
>> > >> >
>> > >> > -----Original Message-----
>> > >> > From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On
>> > >> > Behalf Of Gregory Gombas
>> > >> > Sent: Friday, September 21, 2007 11:11 AM
>> > >> > To: Cisco certification
>> > >> > Subject: Hurry up and get your number before its too late!
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Check out this job ad - says they prefer CCIE below 15000. I
>> > >> > remember a few years ago they wanted CCIE's below 10000. Next it
>> > >> > will be below 20000 - hope I make that threshold!
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >>
>> >
>> > http://seeker.dice.com/jobsearch/servlet/JobSearch?op=101&dockey=xml/f/6/f6d
>> > >> > a82e500534edb88b4d2ab26945b0f@endecaindex&c=1&source=20
>> > >> >
>> > >> > ___________________________________________________________________
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