From: Scott Morris (smorris@ipexpert.com)
Date: Tue Jun 26 2007 - 18:42:16 ART
Now, now... Relax a little.
Yes, there are two switches on Ebay over 100K, but if you think that Cisco
is going to require 6509E's with dual Sup720's and other super-fancy blades
including 10gig interfaces on the CCIE lab, I'm thinking they'll have just a
minor riot going on in Anaheim when they announce that! (grin)
So let's stick with more realistic options and discussions rather than the
I'm-in-love-with-my-AM wish list.
Scott Morris, CCIE4 (R&S/ISP-Dial/Security/Service Provider) #4713, JNCIE
#153, CISSP, et al.
CCSI/JNCI-M/JNCI-J
VP - Technical Training - IPexpert, Inc.
IPexpert Sr. Technical Instructor
A Cisco Learning Partner - We Accept Learning Credits!
smorris@ipexpert.com
Telephone: +1.810.326.1444
Fax: +1.810.454.0130
http://www.ipexpert.com
_____
From: john matijevic [mailto:john.matijevic@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 4:35 PM
To: Brad Ellis
Cc: Digital Yemeni; Scott Morris; ccielab@groupstudy.com
Subject: Re: Rumor mill time - Cat 6500 on R&S lab exam?
Hello All,
Yes depending on the modules you get can easily run over 100k for a Cisco
series switch. No need for smart comments, we can discuss offline if you
like. I don't find your jokes funny.
Here is a link to ebay for 6500's over 100k.
http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?from=R40
<http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?from=R40&_trksid=m37&satitle=cisco
+6509&category0> &_trksid=m37&satitle=cisco+6509&category0 =
Sincerely,
John
On 6/23/07, Brad Ellis <brad@ccbootcamp.com> wrote:
$100k and i don't think JC would even call to see if it got installed
properly...now if you bump that up to $10M, then you could probably get JC
onsite to put a blade in the chasis - although i'm not certain you'd want
that...
I think some people seem to forget that the 6500s are currently on the voice
lab exam - not to mention it looks like there's quite a few 6503s available
in refurb at the moment. :)
thanks,
Brad Ellis
CCIE#5796 (R&S / Security)
CCSI#30482
Network Learning Inc - A Cisco Sponsored Organization (SO)
YES! We take Cisco Learning credits!
brad@ccbootcamp.com
www.ccbootcamp.com (Cisco Training and Advanced Technology Rental Racks)
Voice: 702-968-5100
FAX: 702-446-8012
----- Original Message -----
From: "Digital Yemeni" < digital.yemeni@gmail.com>
To: "Scott Morris" <smorris@ipexpert.com>
Cc: < ccielab@groupstudy.com <mailto:ccielab@groupstudy.com> >
Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2007 3:16 AM
Subject: Re: Rumor mill time - Cat 6500 on R&S lab exam?
Nope! That 100K actually includes the charges because John Chambers himself
will install it for you! ;-)
On 6/23/07, dschulz@skyline-ats.com <dschulz@skyline-ats.com> wrote:
>
> That would probably include the electric bill to power the thing.
>
> Dave
>
>
>
> > $100,000?
> >
> > You don't get to Ebay much, do you? :)
> >
> > _____
> >
> > From: john matijevic [mailto: john.matijevic@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Friday, June 22, 2007 2:09 PM
> > To: Jason Plank
> > Cc: Ryan; Joe Mama; Gary Duncanson; Scott Morris; ccielab@groupstudy.com
> > Subject: Re: Rumor mill time - Cat 6500 on R&S lab exam?
> >
> >
> > Hello All,
> > CCIE is a software certification from what I understand used to also
> test
> > hardware with cabling when it was a 2 day lab. You could not only test
> the
> > 6500 but you could test how to mount a 6500 or how to put in a blade,
> > cabling, how to put in a new jack, how to punch down. There are many
> > aspects
> > of networking out there, not to mention how to use a fluke/toner how to
> > test
> > continuity vs connectivity. How to test out the pins on the wire, how
> to
> > test from the jack on the wall plate to the patch panels to the switch.
> > Again this is a software certification. Also if you introduce the 6500
> on
> > the lab, most people would not be able to afford a $100000+ piece of
> > equipment in their home labs. It would drive the cost up considerably
> but
> > would lower the number of CCIE's. which probably would not be in Cisco's
> > best interest. Just my .02 cents
> > Sincerely,
> > John
> >
> >
> > On 6/22/07, Jason Plank <Jason_Plank@condenast.com> wrote:
> >
> > *golf clap*
> >
> >
> > On 6/22/07 1:12 PM, "Ryan" <ryan95842@gmail.com
> > <mailto:ryan95842@gmail.com <mailto:ryan95842@gmail.com> > > wrote:
> >
> >> 65xx/76xx
> >>
> >> It's a freaking router people!!! (ok, Multi-layer switch)...what's the
> >> big
> >> deal???
> >>
> >> Why is everyone so scared and intimidated of the thing? I seriously
> >> don't
> >> get it...
> >>
> >> Maybe someone could explain why it's so "hard" to use one...I've been
> > using
> >> them for over 6 years...so what. Nothing on the 6509 I've done has
> > required
> >> any kind of magical super talent/knowledge.
> >>
> >> It's just another piece of hardware folks...big whoop.
> >>
> >>
> >> -Ryan
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 6/22/07, Joe Mama <jsmith1234550@gmail.com
<mailto:jsmith1234550@gmail.com>
> > <mailto:jsmith1234550@gmail.com> > wrote:
> >>>
> >>> All,
> >>>
> >>> One more thing....
> >>>
> >>> Every large company will buy a 6500 and Cisco really doesn't need to
> >>> market this platform all that much as the 3560. Most companies I've
> >>> worked for use them for Access, Dsitribution, Core, etc. There really
> >>> is no competiton; a 6500 is awesome!
> >>>
> >>> If every CCIE knows the 3560, then, when they go to make a choice for
> >>> a small site, etc/ they will know all of the features and choose the
> >>> trusty switch that got them their ccie......you see what i mean? The
> >>> CCIE is a good way for Cisco to market their newer products that are
> >>> not that well klnown but are great for a small site. Cisco's main
> >>> competion is in this area. In some of our very small sites, we run
> >>> 2811's / 3560's / 3845's and they are fantastic and extremely powerful
> >>> (in RAM and feature set capability, etc..) and I certainly am very
> >>> comfortable with them due to my studies, etc. and would not even
> >>> propose another type of network device (from another company) because
> >>> I am so confident in their abilities.
> >>>
> >>> The 3560 and 3845 platforms are great! Of course, for any decent size
> >>> campus, only 65xx-E with SUP720x will do, but Cisco really doesn't
> >>> need to push this. Also, as was mentioned, having 4 6500's in a
> >>> regualr R&S lab would limit the number of people going for CCIes which
> >>> would not be good for Cisco......
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Joe
> >>>
> >>> Andre
> >>>
> >>> Joe
> >>>
> >>> On 6/22/07, Gary Duncanson <gary.duncanson@googlemail.com
<mailto:gary.duncanson@googlemail.com> > wrote:
> >>>> Yeah,
> >>>>
> >>>> In some situations a CCIE is a metric of what you should be *capable*
> >>> of,
> >>>> not necessarily what you can *do* straight off the bat.
> >>>>
> >>>> Nobody knows everything. The CCIE provides as much as is reasonable
> on
> >>> the
> >>>> 'stuff to learn' and 'stuff to do' front. How far a candidate chooses
> >>>> to
> >
> >>>> take that is a variable.
> >>>>
> >>>> For example the recommended reading list does covers a lot of things
> >>> that
> >>>> are not tested in the lab but are still potentially very useful to
> >>>> know.
> >
> >>>>
> >>>> I think it's very useful for a CCIE to have at least a handle on
> >>> switching
> >>>> platforms that are not tested but if you check the recommended
> reading
> >>>> list..its there in Kennedy Clark and has been for 8 years..
> >>>>
> >>>> http://www.ciscopress.com/bookstore/product.asp?isbn=1578700949
> > <
<http://www.ciscopress.com/bookstore/product.asp?isbn=1578700949&rl=1>
http://www.ciscopress.com/bookstore/product.asp?isbn=1578700949&rl=1>
> > &rl=1
> >>>>
> >>>> So you can certainly get some knowhow there during the course of your
> >>> CCIE
> >>>> studies.
> >>>>
> >>>> In the lab today, ISDN etc is off. That doesn't mean we won't ever
> >>>> find
> >>> ISDN
> >>>> out there or DLSW+ or connections to DEC/VAX someplace.
> >>>>
> >>>> But whatever you come up against in the world of work I would say
> >>>> having
> >>> a
> >>>> CCIE probably demonstrates to an employer that you are quite capable
> >>>> of
> >>>> figuring more than a few things out.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>> From: "Scott Morris" < <mailto: smorris@ipexpert.com>
> > smorris@ipexpert.com>
> >>>> To: "'Jason Plank'" < Jason_Plank@condenast.com
<mailto:Jason_Plank@condenast.com> >; "'Serdar Kut'"
> >>>> < <mailto:kutserdar@gmail.com> kutserdar@gmail.com
<mailto:kutserdar@gmail.com> >; "'Narbik
> > Kocharians'" <narbikk@gmail.com>
> >>>> Cc: "'Mike Kraus (mikraus)'" < <mailto: mikraus@cisco.com
<mailto:mikraus@cisco.com> >
> > mikraus@cisco.com>; "'Eric Dobyns'"
> >>>> <eric_dobyns@yahoo.com <mailto:eric_dobyns@yahoo.com> >; "'Digital
Yemeni'" <
> > <mailto:digital.yemeni@gmail.com> digital.yemeni@gmail.com >;
> >>>> <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
> >>>> Sent: Friday, June 22, 2007 4:29 PM
> >>>> Subject: RE: Rumor mill time - Cat 6500 on R&S lab exam?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> What are you looking for the CCIE to do for you? If you are telling
> >>> me
> >>>>> that
> >>>>> a person who has his/her CCIE cannot reasonably sit down and FIGURE
> >>> OUT
> >>>>> the
> >>>>> 6500 or new things, then I'd say that person didn't study enough for
> >>> their
> >>>>> exam and got pretty damned lucky.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Nobody knows everything. And you can't design a test around
> >>> everything.
> >>>>> While marketing people would love you for saying it's their top
> >>> product, I
> >>>>> would say that certainly has to do with what market/application you
> >>> are
> >>>>> playing in. If it's all you see, I'm happy for you, but it's not all
> >>>>> that's
> >>>>> out there!
> >>>>>
> >>>>> So how many pieces of equipment would you like to see show up in the
> >>> CCIE
> >>>>> lab?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Not having touched and knowing nothing are two completely different
> >>>>> concepts. There are many blades on a 6500 I haven't touched before,
> >>> but
> >>>>> I'd
> >>>>> like to think I could figure them out if needed! THAT is being a
> >>> CCIE.
> >>>>> Not
> >>>>> necessarily touching anything and everything.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Relax and focus on the important things.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Should you need to renew/retake your drivers license if you decide
> >>>>> you
> >>>>> want
> >>>>> an SUV instead of a car, or a hybrid instead of a "regular" car? Or
> >>>>> a
> >>>>> pickup truck?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I mean... They ARE different.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Scott Morris, CCIE4 (R&S/ISP-Dial/Security/Service Provider) #4713,
> >>> JNCIE
> >>>>> #153, CISSP, et al.
> >>>>> CCSI/JNCI-M/JNCI-J
> >>>>> VP - Technical Training - IPexpert, Inc.
> >>>>> IPexpert Sr. Technical Instructor
> >>>>>
> >>>>> A Cisco Learning Partner - We Accept Learning Credits!
> >>>>>
> >>>>> smorris@ipexpert.com <mailto:smorris@ipexpert.com>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Telephone: +1.810.326.1444
> >>>>> Fax: +1.810.454.0130
> >>>>> http://www.ipexpert.com <http://www.ipexpert.com>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>> From: Jason Plank [mailto:Jason_Plank@condenast.com
<mailto:Jason_Plank@condenast.com>
> > <mailto:Jason_Plank@condenast.com> ]
> >>>>> Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2007 5:33 PM
> >>>>> To: Scott Morris; 'Serdar Kut'; 'Narbik Kocharians'
> >>>>> Cc: 'Mike Kraus (mikraus)'; 'Eric Dobyns'; 'Digital Yemeni';
> >>>>> ccielab@groupstudy.com
> >>>>> Subject: Re: Rumor mill time - Cat 6500 on R&S lab exam?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> So you think it helps the value of the CCIE that it can produce a
> >>>>> CCIE
> >>>>> that
> >>>>> knows NOTHING about a 6500? What is cisco's top product? What are
> you
> >>>>> considered if you are a CCIE. Doesn't mesh in my mind.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Totally disagree.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On 6/21/07 1:38 PM, "Scott Morris" <smorris@ipexpert.com> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Should it matter?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The CCIE tests your knowledge of technologies, not product.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The stuff you can do with a 6500 at a basic switching technology
> >>> level
> >>>>>> isn't really any different than the switches we currently have. If
> >>> we
> >>>>>> start taking service modules, that's different, but that's a whole
> >>> new
> >>>>>> technology base.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> *shrug* HUGE expense difference not only for them to rollout, but
> >>>>>> foreveryone to study!
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Scott Morris, CCIE4 (R&S/ISP-Dial/Security/Service Provider) #4713,
> >>>>>> JNCIE #153, CISSP, et al.
> >>>>>> CCSI/JNCI-M/JNCI-J
> >>>>>> VP - Technical Training - IPexpert, Inc.
> >>>>>> IPexpert Sr. Technical Instructor
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> A Cisco Learning Partner - We Accept Learning Credits!
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> smorris@ipexpert.com
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Telephone: +1.810.326.1444
> >>>>>> Fax: +1.810.454.0130
> >>>>>> http://www.ipexpert.com <http://www.ipexpert.com>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>> From: nobody@groupstudy.com <mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com>
[mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On
> Behalf
> >>>>>> Of Serdar Kut
> >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 4:55 AM
> >>>>>> To: Narbik Kocharians
> >>>>>> Cc: Mike Kraus (mikraus); Eric Dobyns; Digital Yemeni;
> >>>>>> ccielab@groupstudy.com
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: Rumor mill time - Cat 6500 on R&S lab exam?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I actually agree with Narbik..It is a big shame not to be aware of
> >>>>>> 6500 and 4500 chasis and config tricks for a CCIE I think. And
> also,
> >>>>>> as a CCIE, most of time I deal with big chasis, not much with 3560s
> >>> or
> >>>>> less.
> >>>>>> It should be good I think
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Serdar Kut
> >>>>>> CCIE#18130
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On 6/20/07, Narbik Kocharians <narbikk@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Actually i hope they do that, because that would be the closest
> >>> thing
> >>>>>>> to the real world. No matter where you go these days, you see at
> >>>>>>> least one 6500 series up and running. I think it would benefit the
> >>>>> program.
> >>>>>>> You may see a 3560 here and there, but you will definitely see a
> >>>>>>> lot
> >>>>>>> of firms having 6500 series. To be honest i typically see a
> mixture
> >>>>>>> of 4000/4500 and a 6500 in a collapsed core design.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On 6/19/07, Mike Kraus (mikraus) < mikraus@cisco.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Not sure of the point of that in the R&S lab.... Really don't see
> >>>>>>>> them starting to test on the service modules on the 6500 in the
> >>> R&S.
> >>>>>>>> And, in many cases the 3560 has greater feature velocity. So, it
> >>>>>>>> would cost the CCIE program more money, a more rack space, but
> >>>>>>>> doesn't really give them many more test topics.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>>>> From: nobody@groupstudy.com <mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com>
> > [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On
> >>> Behalf
> >>>>>>>> Of Eric Dobyns
> >>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 6:30 PM
> >>>>>>>> To: 'Digital Yemeni'; 'Narbik Kocharians'
> >>>>>>>> Cc: ccielab@groupstudy.com
> >>>>>>>> Subject: RE: Rumor mill time - Cat 6500 on R&S lab exam?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I believe you have a 3550 and 3 3650 all running L3, which
> >>> basically
> >>>>>>>> means you've got 13 routers to deal with.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>>>> From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com
> > <mailto: <mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com> nobody@groupstudy.com> ] On
> >>> Behalf
> >>>>>>>> Of Digital Yemeni
> >>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 5:49 PM
> >>>>>>>> To: Narbik Kocharians
> >>>>>>>> Cc: ccielab@groupstudy.com
> >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Rumor mill time - Cat 6500 on R&S lab exam?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> nope nope! Cisco has recently faced some severe budget
> limitations
> >>>>>>>> and brought back the 2500s and L2 1900 switches!! :p
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Brad, since you're a Cisco Sponsored Organization, the
> >>>>>>>> confirmation
> >>>>>>>> (not the
> >>>>>>>> question!) should come from you isn't it? ;-)
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On 6/20/07, Narbik Kocharians < narbikk@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I heard 85xx and 12xxx
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On 6/19/07, Brad Ellis < brad@ccbootcamp.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Anyone else hear this?
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> thanks,
> >>>>>>>>>> Brad Ellis
> >>>>>>>>>> CCIE#5796 (R&S / Security)
> >>>>>>>>>> CCSI#30482
> >>>>>>>>>> Network Learning Inc - A Cisco Sponsored Organization (SO) YES!
> >>>>>>>>>> We take Cisco Learning credits!
> >>>>>>>>>> brad@ccbootcamp.com
> >>>>>>>>>> http://www.ccbootcamp.com (Cisco Training and Advanced
> >>>>>>>>>> Technology
> >>>>>>>>>> Rental
> >>>>>>>>>> Racks)
> >>>>>>>>>> Toll Free: 877-NLI-CCIE (877-654-2243) Outside USA:
> 702-968-5100
> >>>>>>>>>> FAX: 702-446-8012
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> ________________________________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>>> ____ ___ Subscription information may be found at:
> >>>>>>>>>> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
<http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>> Narbik Kocharians
> >>>>>>>>> CCIE# 12410 (R&S, SP, Security)
> >>>>>>>>> CCSI# 30832
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> __________________________________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>> ____ _ Subscription information may be found at:
> >>>>>>>>> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>> Best Regards!
> >>>>>>>> Digital, CCIE# to be assigned by Cisco when it collects enough $$
> >>>>>>>> out of me!
> >>>>>>>> :p
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>> ____________________________________________________________________
> >>>>>>>> ___ Subscription information may be found at:
> >>>>>>>> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
<http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>> ____________________________________________________________________
> >>>>>>>> ___ Subscription information may be found at:
> >>>>>>>> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>> Narbik Kocharians
> >>>>>>> CCIE# 12410 (R&S, SP, Security)
> >>>>>>> CCSI# 30832
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>> _____________________________________________________________________
> >>>>>>> _ _ Subscription information may be found at:
> >>>>>>> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>> ______________________________________________________________________
> >>>>>> _ Subscription information may be found at:
> >>>>>> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>> ______________________________________________________________________
> >>>>>> _ Subscription information may be found at:
> >>>>>> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Jason Plank, CCIE# 16560
> >>>>> Senior Network Engineer
> >>>>> Conde Nast Publications
> >>>>> 1201 North Market St.
> >>>>> Wilmington, DE 19808
> >>>>> Email: Jason_Plank@CondeNast.com
> >>>>> Office: 302-830-4910
> >>>>> Cell: 302-290-0387
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>
> _______________________________________________________________________
> >>>>> Subscription information may be found at:
> >>>>> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> >>>>
> >>>>
> _______________________________________________________________________
> >>>> Subscription information may be found at:
> >>>> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> >>>
> >>>
> _______________________________________________________________________
> >>> Subscription information may be found at:
> >>> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________________________________
> >> Subscription information may be found at:
> >> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> >
> > --
> > Jason Plank, CCIE# 16560
> > Senior Network Engineer
> > Conde Nast Publications
> > 1201 North Market St.
> > Wilmington, DE 19808
> > Email: Jason_Plank@CondeNast.com <mailto:Jason_Plank@CondeNast.com>
> > Office: 302-830-4910
> > Cell: 302-290-0387
> >
> > _______________________________________________________________________
> > Subscription information may be found at:
> > http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > John Matijevic
> > Insight Global
> > 954-969-7160 ext. 1147 (office)
> > 305-321-6232 (cell)
> >
> > _______________________________________________________________________
> > Subscription information may be found at:
> > http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
>
> _______________________________________________________________________
> Subscription information may be found at:
> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
>
-- Best Regards! Digital, CCIE# to be assigned by Cisco when it collects enough $$ out of me!:p
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.4 : Sun Jul 01 2007 - 17:24:51 ART