From: Darby Weaver (darbyweaver@yahoo.com)
Date: Tue Apr 17 2007 - 10:04:57 ART
Exactly.
What if they were labs pulled from the univercd?
Would you be disappointed?
They would be "Real Cisco CCIE Labs".
Or what if they were labs from a Cisco Press Book that
has CCIE Labs - are they less real?
--- Narbik Kocharians <narbikk@gmail.com> wrote:
> Let's say you purchased the labs and they were NOT
> so real, where would you
> go to ask for a refund?
>
> On 4/17/07, Darby Weaver <darbyweaver@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > Hey,
> >
> > Bsides if your friend spends $1200 for "real labs"
> -
> > she's getting jacked anyway - didn't she read
> GS...
> >
> > They are on ebay for like $50.00 or something.
> >
> > Dude the guys who sell "real labs" have
> competition.
> >
> > I guess you can't really copyright stolen material
> in
> > the first place.
> >
> > Besides, how can she be sure about what is a "real
> > lab" and what is not a "real lab". And as one
> said if
> > it in not the whole lab then what is the point
> anyway.
> >
> > And if it is Cisco and they are tracking you, you
> may
> > fail anyway - even if you pass.
> >
> > I have hundreds of "real labs" and I say hundreds
> due
> > to versioning but you get my point. So what is a
> real
> > lab?
> >
> > Next thing you know you'll get junk mail in your
> > mailbox at home "Real Labs for $1.00".
> >
> > What if we just posted questions and scenarios the
> > study group day in and day out? Kinda like we do
> now,
> > wouldn't those be "real questions".
> >
> > Where does it start and where does it end?
> >
> > The univercd is free and there are a load of
> reputable
> > vendors who sell real labs with detailed solutions
> > that are in English - the language of the lab.
> >
> > "there's no shortcut to success and don't waste
> time
> > looking for them." - Colin Powell
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- Usman Ali <usman198@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Hello ,
> > >
> > > I can not understand how Indian training
> institutes
> > > offering guarantee
> > > to pass CCIE in 2nd attempt and they are
> offering
> > > this in a pakage of
> > > some 6000 $ , that is a Banglore base institute
> . I
> > > personally know 2
> > > people who could not pass in Belgium then they
> go
> > > india and pass CCIE
> > > with in 2-3 months .
> > > Why not cisco close down that kind of centers at
> > > least 2 in Asia (India
> > > and china).
> > > When i compare that 6000 $ expense which is
> nothing
> > > !!!!!!!!!!!!with
> > > mine which is more than 10000$ in Last 3 years
> and
> > > hardworking and
> > > still i have to appear and pass CCIE.
> > >
> > > Bye
> > >
> > > Usman Ali
> > >
> > > Darby Weaver wrote:
> > > > ok 40 hours - it's the red in my eyes -
> ooops...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- Scott Morris <swm@emanon.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> "40 years of CCIE training per year"??? :)
> > > Sounds
> > > >> like you've been
> > > >> working too hard!
> > > >>
> > > >> It may seem like years, but only days go by!
> > > (grin)
> > > >>
> > > >> Every year or so, we always have similar
> > > >> discussions... We're still here
> > > >> though!
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> -----Original Message-----
> > > >> From: nobody@groupstudy.com
> > > >> [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
> > > >> Darby Weaver
> > > >> Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 8:54 AM
> > > >> To: Lab Dude
> > > >> Cc: Dan C; Usman Ali; Anthony Bonilla;
> CCIEwnaB;
> > > >> ccielab@groupstudy.com
> > > >> Subject: Re: Why not to use the "real ccie
> lab"
> > > >> folks
> > > >>
> > > >> Why unfair to those who passed before and why
> are
> > > >> they wimps?
> > > >>
> > > >> They had to take the lab of their day and it
> was
> > > a
> > > >> challenge.
> > > >>
> > > >> The community as a whole has grown by leaps
> and
> > > >> bounds since the first CCIE
> > > >> till today.
> > > >>
> > > >> I can assure you the CCIE's who took the lab
> 10
> > > >> years ago had their work cut
> > > >> out for them then as we do now.
> > > >>
> > > >> We have more resources to study, but the lab
> has
> > > >> gotten more interesting.
> > > >>
> > > >> They had no such resources at the time and if
> you
> > > >> look at lab materials from
> > > >> the past decade you might think some things
> > > >> simplistic until you try to deal
> > > >> with things like AppleTalk, Novell, and Vines
> > > among
> > > >> other protocols and the
> > > >> joys they brought to the table.
> > > >>
> > > >> Nope each generation has challenges.
> > > >>
> > > >> If the lab goes to 2 day again, 3 day or even
> 5
> > > day
> > > >> there will be those of
> > > >> us who will pay the price to achieve the
> > > >> certfication no matter what.
> > > >>
> > > >> So why even argue the point.
> > > >>
> > > >> Let the 5-day labs begin now.
> > > >>
> > > >> Cisco was considerate of the candidates then
> and
> > > >> will be in the future, and
> > > >> you wonder why the proctors no longer take
> the
> > > time
> > > >> to discuss scores with
> > > >> candidates... It was getting spooky to them
> and
> > > >> they were getting fearful
> > > >> of the emotionally distraught folks.
> > > >>
> > > >> The lab is tense and always will be 1 day or
> > > more.
> > > >>
> > > >> But hey and interview and an oral review are
> not
> > > >> unheard of, nor is getting
> > > >> a peer or a manager or the like to certify
> that a
> > > >> candidate has x years of
> > > >> experience.
> > > >>
> > > >> Would it really hurt to do these things? And
> > > what
> > > >> about continuing
> > > >> education credit of some sort.
> > > >>
> > > >> Networkers used to be a nice requirement and
> it
> > > went
> > > >> away. Personally it or
> > > >> an alternative such as attending at least 40
> > > years
> > > >> of CCIE level training
> > > >> per year would be a minimum in my book.
> > > >>
> > > >> Guess there would be a lot CCIE's hating me
> and
> > > more
> > > >> loving me if I ever got
> > > >> the job.
> > > >>
> > > >> Value would be secured for sure and no one
> would
> > > >> fear being called a paper
> > > >> tiger or even a lab rat.
> > > >>
> > > >> If you got it you earned it, and if you got
> it,
> > > you
> > > >> continue to earn it.
> > > >>
> > > >> Not much to ask from the most respected cert
> in
> > > the
> > > >> industry.
> > > >>
> > > >> Why not set the standard?
> > > >>
> > > >> It's called survival, when only the strong
> can
> > > >> survive.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> --- Lab Dude <ccielabdude@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>> Whats next? Rename of CCIE to PhD
> certification?
> > > >>> Pre-requisite being
> > > >>> enrolling at a Cisco Academy for 5 years
> before
> > > >>>
> > > >> pursuing the
> > > >>
> > > >>> certification?
> > > >>> If I recall correctly, there are no lab
> slots
> > > >>>
> > > >> available in the near
> > > >>
> > > >>> future due to 'high-demand'. Do you really
> think
> > > >>>
> > > >> Cisco has enough
> > > >>
> > > >>> resources to allocate for a certification?
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Give me a break. This is just a
> certification
> > > that
> > > >>>
> > > >> needs renewing
> > > >>
> > > >>> every 2 years. This is NOT a PhD
> dissertation.
> > > At
> > > >>>
> > > >> least once you get
> > > >>
> > > >>> the PhD degree you hold it for life, not
> with a
> > > 2
> > > >>>
> > > >> years renewal
> > > >>
> > > >>> condition.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> If Cisco was to ever adhere to the rumor, it
> > > would
> > > >>>
> > > >> be extremely unfair
> > > >>
> > > >>> to those planning to pursue in the future as
> > > many
> > > >>>
> > > >> wimps have already
> > > >>
> > > >>> passed before ;-)
> > > >>>
> > > >>> On 4/16/07, Darby Weaver
> <darbyweaver@yahoo.com>
> > > >>> wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> Dan,
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> You know there is a rumor of a new program
> > > >>>>
> > > >> manager
> > > >>
> > > >>> to
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> replace Maurilio and that program manager
> wants
> > > >>>>
> > > >> I multiday program
> > > >>
> > > >>>> (I think 5-day) and that it would involve
> just
> > > >>>>
> > > >> such an interview
> > > >>
> > > >>>> process on day one before a candidate would
> > > ever
> > > >>>>
> > > >> even be allowed to
> > > >>
> > > >>> see a
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> rack of gear. Then the candidate would
> have to
> > > >>>>
> > > >> complete each of
> > > >>
> > > >>>> several tracks to include all of
> > > >>>>
> > > >>> the
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> older technologies and the newer ones as
> well.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Just a rumor but my own ears did hear it.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> I guess it would be a true Enterprise-Class
> > > CCIE
> > > >>>>
> > > >>> and
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> wimps need not apply.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> --- Dan C <cdan2154@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>> Hi all,
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> I like the idea Usman put forward by the
> time
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>> those
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>> guys attempt to memorise
> > > >>>>> 100 labs they will be CCIE's ready without
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>> knowing
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>> :) Maybe another way to
> > > >>>>> move forward is for Cisco to have a live
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>> interview
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>> before the day of the
> > > >>>>> exam, where you may need to answer few
> basic
> > > >>>>>
> > > >> questions and prove
> > > >>
> > > >>>>> that you have the experience needed to
> move to
> > > >>>>>
> > > >> the next level...
> > > >>
> > > >>>>> who knows....
> > > >>>>> my2cents, Dan
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> On 4/17/07, Usman Ali <usman198@gmail.com>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>> wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>>> Hello all Gurus ,
> > > >>>>>> I think it is very desperate for the
> people
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>> who
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>> are doing CCIE by studying
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>> .
> > > >>>>>> i am working on ccie from last 1 year and
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >> quit
> > > >>
> > > >>> job
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>> only for study and my
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>> target to pass CCIE in three attempts ,
> if i
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >> pass end of this
> > > >>
> > > >>>>>> year what will be the
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>> market
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>> of ccie after 3 years
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>> when there would be more than 50000 CCIE
> and
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >> a
> > > >>
> > > >>> few
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>> thousands with good
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>> knowledge ,
> > > >>>>>> it is very disappointing position is it
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >> better to go with IBM
> > > >>
> > > >>>>>> certification to
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>> earn
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>> IBM cert you need just
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>> a few configurations and once a redbook
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >> study
> > > >>
> > > >>> of
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>> the technology , i
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>> passed IBM SAN solution desinger examine
> 3
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>> years
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>> before and it is more
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>> easy than even CCNA and have a good
> market
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>> value
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>> too .
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>> can cisco make a huge data base of some
> 100
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>> labs
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>> you will get one in
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>> examine or something like this to avoid
> the
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>> fraud
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>> .
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>> bye
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Usman Ali
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Anthony Bonilla wrote:
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> On the same note, one of the proctors in
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >> RTP
> > > >>
> > > >>> was
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>> mentioning that they
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>> know
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> that lab exams are leaking out being
> that
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>> whenever Cisco releases a new
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> exam, the passing rate is real low but
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >> after
> > > >>
> > > >>> two
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>> weeks or so, the
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>> passing
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> rate shoots up to 90% - go figure!
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> When everyone in the room asked why
> Cisco
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>> does
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>> not do anything about it,
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>> he
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> replied that they can't do anything
> there
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>> because China has no NDA or
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> something to that affect. Or better
> yet,
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>> Cisco
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>> should offering this
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>> exam in
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> those countries to begin with but if
> this
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>> continues to go on and Cisco
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>> does
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> not do anything knowing all this is
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>> happening,
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>> you always wonder if they
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> themselves are involved as well???
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> Just my 2 cents.
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> On 4/15/07, Darby Weaver
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>> <darbyweaver@yahoo.com>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>> wrote:
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> What everyone on this list in a
> position
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >> to
> > > >>
> > > >>>>> hire
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> should do, could do, and ought to do
> with
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>> every
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>> single
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> job candidate, CCIE notwithstanding, is
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >> set
> > > >>
> > > >>>>> them down
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> in front of some gear and let them show
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >> you
> > > >>
> > > >>> how
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>> and
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> why they are the person for the job...
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> 2-3 hours in front of gear and you know
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>> whether
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>> you
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> have a keeper or... NOT.
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> Lots of people are passing the lab
> these
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>> past
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>> few
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> years...
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> Not all of them are quite qualified to
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >> work
> > > >>
> > > >>> on
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>> a
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> full-fledged network with "issues".
> I'm
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>> sure
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>> most of
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> have worked hard and some for some
> years,
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>> but a
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>> few
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> squeak by.
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> So... if everyone here and everywhere
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >> else
> > > >>
> > > >>>>> maintains
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> good hiring practices, then I suspect
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >> that
> > > >>
> > > >>> we
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>> will not
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> have this problem of people passing the
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >> lab
> > > >>
> > > >>> and
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>>>>> getting digits by any means necessary.
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> Not is they know that the cert alone is
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >> not
> > > >>
> > > >>> a
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>> rubber
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> stamp to a CCIE-Level position.
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> However with a quick romp to the job
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >> boards
> > > >>
> > > >>> and
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>> seeing
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> postings like:
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> CCNA required and CCIE desired... with
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >> MCSE
> > > >>
> > > >>> or
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>> CNE or
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> Unix experience and oh yes, we want the
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>> candidate to
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> install MS SQL or MS Exchange or even
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>> handle
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>> desktop
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> support issues and Symantec AV etc...
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> Hmmm... What is the point...
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> Also be careful to apply to jobs that
> are
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>> of a
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>> CCIE
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> caliber as well - once you get the
> grail.
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> =====================================
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> One more thing, did anyone ever
> consider
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>> that
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>> maybe,
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> just maybe, Cisco is the one putting
> out
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>> the
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>> "real
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> CCIE Labs" and if they are I suppose
> the
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>> proctors have
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> a lot of fun watching things not quite
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >> work
> > > >>
> > > >>> for
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>>>>> candidates whenever they pass
> through...
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>> Here's a
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> little but not quite a lot...
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> That is kind of sadistic... Especially
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>> since
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>> they may
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> even have the names of the buyers...
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> Hey - how many people come report back
> on
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>> GS
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>> and say
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> they cannot figure out what went
> wrong...
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> Hah!
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> LOL
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> Hmmm...
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> Close but no cigar...
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> --- CCIEwnaB <cciewnab@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> OK smart peeps,
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> I have a friend who is currently
> working
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>> on
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>> her
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> CCNP, and keeps giving me a
> > > >>>>>>>>> hard time for not having passed the
> lab
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>> yet (1
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> failed attempt under my belt) but I'm
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >> still hitting it hard
> > > >>
> > > >>>>>>>>> and will be
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>> going back
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> in another 2 moths.
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> Anyway, she's convinced that when she
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>> finishes
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>> her
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> last NP test she'll just
> > > >>>>>>>>> pay the $1200 to the folks who shall
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>> remian
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>> nameless
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> and study the "3 real
> > > >>>>>>>>> CCIE labs" and pass on the first
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >> attempt."
> > > >>
> > > >>> I
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>> agree
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> with what's been said
> > > >>>>>>>>> here so many times before, that the
> cert
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>> only
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>> means
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> something if you truly
> > > >>>>>>>>> are an expert and have earned it. So
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >> let's
> > > >>
> > > >>> not
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>> get
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> everyone all wound up.
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> That being said, does anyone have a
> few
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>> stories I
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> can share with her, that
> > > >>>>>>>>> might be helpfull in keeping her on
> the
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>> "HIGH
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>> ROAD".
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> I keep trying to tell
> > > >>>>>>>>> her, she's going to pay $1200 for a
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >> couple
> > > >>
> > > >>>>> useless
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> old files and then what,
> > > >>>>>>>>> go to the proctor on test day and say,
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >> hey
> > > >>
> > > >>>>> this
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> isn't the test I was
> > > >>>>>>>>> expecting you must have made a
> mistake?
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> I'm sure there are other folks here
> who
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>> have
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>> fallen
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> for it, please share
> > > >>>>>>>>> your experiences so my friend will see
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >> the
> > > >>
> > > >>>>> light and
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> not surrender to the
> > > >>>>>>>>> dark side...she knows who she is
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.4 : Tue May 01 2007 - 08:28:36 ART