From: Darby Weaver (darbyweaver@yahoo.com)
Date: Mon Apr 16 2007 - 11:09:23 ART
ok - let's drop the term wimps since it clouds the
issue at hand.
The guys who went before had their hurdles whether or
not they used "other" unsanctioned materials.
BTW - the last time I checked it was korean and not
chinese.
There will always be those who can skip between the
lines.
I probably have more resources allocated to the task
than anyone else - personally.
However, we cannot compare the past to the future.
The fact is in the past, whichever past we look at,
those guys did not have anywhere near the materials
and study aids we currently have.
And to be fair if the lab does go to a multi-day
format, do you even think there would not be materials
to prep candidates for every single aspect of it.
Supply and demand.
And the guys who try to offer the labs, even if it is
or is not, a covert Cisco team would still offer
something as long as people are paying.
And by the way, where do you think they advertise?
Strangely enough right here and other forums where we
candidated co-mingle.
But if Cisco does change the program here are my
recommendations:
1. A requirement that the candidate have a requisite
number of years experience verified by employment and
further certified via some HR. May not be foolproof
but ought to provide come criteria for "experience".
2. A requirement that each candidate perform a
mini-interview with a CCIE "BEFORE" they can schedule
a lab seat and after the Written exam is successfully
passed - their are word-for-word dumps of the written.
So another verification step is necessary.
3. A requirement to attend attend Networkers to stay
on top of current topics and events in the field.
4. A requirment to complete at least 40 hours of
network training - whether it is a college course or a
course given by a certified partner would not matter
as long a continuing education requirement is
mandatory.
5. Maintain passing at least a written exam every two
years, but also add at least a CCIE Accessor type of
of lab that must also be completed every two years as
well.
6. Offer a "Board Review" option where CCIE's who want
to become even more distinguised attend a Certified
Board Review of their peers and are asked to design
complex networks - not CCIE Lab networks that we never
use, but networks that follow best practices and we do
use.
5. If there is to be a 5-day bootcamp for Enterprise
or Master CCIE's then this is fine as well. But it
should include options as listed as above in addition
to rigorously testing the technologies.
Further, I think a CCNA Lab should be made available
to CCNA's and CCNP/CCSP/CCVP etc. ought to have a
similar lab at a similar level.
The clients and networks we serve deserve a higher
standard than we had before.
Why not give it to them?
Hey in our field the CCIE is just the beginning it is
never the end of the line, remember?
--- Lab Dude <ccielabdude@gmail.com> wrote:
> If Cisco was to ever adhere to the rumor, it would
> be extremely unfair to
> those planning to pursue in the future as many wimps
> have already passed
> before ;-)
>
> It would be unfair to those who are pursuing the
> certification and havent
> achieved it yet, or plan to do it in the future
> because many others would
> have passed the lab in the past when it would have
> been 'relatively' easier.
>
>
> Assuming Cisco was to go ahead with the new format,
> it will not be
> possible to compare apples to apples. Assuming Cisco
> made the changes later
> in the year, does this mean CCIE number 20000 is
> much more valuable than
> CCIE number 16xxx? How do you compare the knowledge
> of either? How can you
> guarantee that someone who has passed in the past
> (using the old system)
> is actually authentic and has not utilized chinese
> websites to pass?
>
> To make it fair, maybe Cisco would need to get every
> single CCIE out there
> go through the same new 5-day ordeal. How many CCIEs
> out there would want to
> go through it again?
>
> People who are using or have used chinese websites
> in the past to pass can
> be successfully called wimps. Do you not agree? I
> thought that was the whole
> point of this email thread.....
>
>
>
> On 4/16/07, Darby Weaver <darbyweaver@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > Why unfair to those who passed before and why are
> they
> > wimps?
> >
> > They had to take the lab of their day and it was a
> > challenge.
> >
> > The community as a whole has grown by leaps and
> bounds
> > since the first CCIE till today.
> >
> > I can assure you the CCIE's who took the lab 10
> years
> > ago had their work cut out for them then as we do
> now.
> >
> > We have more resources to study, but the lab has
> > gotten more interesting.
> >
> > They had no such resources at the time and if you
> look
> > at lab materials from the past decade you might
> think
> > some things simplistic until you try to deal with
> > things like AppleTalk, Novell, and Vines among
> other
> > protocols and the joys they brought to the table.
> >
> > Nope each generation has challenges.
> >
> > If the lab goes to 2 day again, 3 day or even 5
> day
> > there will be those of us who will pay the price
> to
> > achieve the certfication no matter what.
> >
> > So why even argue the point.
> >
> > Let the 5-day labs begin now.
> >
> > Cisco was considerate of the candidates then and
> will
> > be in the future, and you wonder why the proctors
> no
> > longer take the time to discuss scores with
> > candidates... It was getting spooky to them and
> they
> > were getting fearful of the emotionally distraught
> > folks.
> >
> > The lab is tense and always will be 1 day or more.
> >
> > But hey and interview and an oral review are not
> > unheard of, nor is getting a peer or a manager or
> the
> > like to certify that a candidate has x years of
> > experience.
> >
> > Would it really hurt to do these things? And what
> > about continuing education credit of some sort.
> >
> > Networkers used to be a nice requirement and it
> went
> > away. Personally it or an alternative such as
> > attending at least 40 years of CCIE level training
> per
> > year would be a minimum in my book.
> >
> > Guess there would be a lot CCIE's hating me and
> more
> > loving me if I ever got the job.
> >
> > Value would be secured for sure and no one would
> fear
> > being called a paper tiger or even a lab rat.
> >
> > If you got it you earned it, and if you got it,
> you
> > continue to earn it.
> >
> > Not much to ask from the most respected cert in
> the
> > industry.
> >
> > Why not set the standard?
> >
> > It's called survival, when only the strong can
> > survive.
> >
> >
> > --- Lab Dude <ccielabdude@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Whats next? Rename of CCIE to PhD certification?
> > > Pre-requisite being
> > > enrolling at a Cisco Academy for 5 years before
> > > pursuing the certification?
> > > If I recall correctly, there are no lab slots
> > > available in the near future
> > > due to 'high-demand'. Do you really think Cisco
> has
> > > enough resources to
> > > allocate for a certification?
> > >
> > > Give me a break. This is just a certification
> that
> > > needs renewing every 2
> > > years. This is NOT a PhD dissertation. At least
> once
> > > you get the PhD degree
> > > you hold it for life, not with a 2 years renewal
> > > condition.
> > >
> > > If Cisco was to ever adhere to the rumor, it
> would
> > > be extremely unfair to
> > > those planning to pursue in the future as many
> wimps
> > > have already passed
> > > before ;-)
> > >
> > > On 4/16/07, Darby Weaver <darbyweaver@yahoo.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Dan,
> > > >
> > > > You know there is a rumor of a new program
> manager
> > > to
> > > > replace Maurilio and that program manager
> wants I
> > > > multiday program (I think 5-day) and that it
> would
> > > > involve just such an interview process on day
> one
> > > > before a candidate would ever even be allowed
> to
> > > see a
> > > > rack of gear. Then the candidate would have
> to
> > > > complete each of several tracks to include all
> of
> > > the
> > > > older technologies and the newer ones as well.
> > > >
> > > > Just a rumor but my own ears did hear it.
> > > >
> > > > I guess it would be a true Enterprise-Class
> CCIE
> > > and
> > > > wimps need not apply.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- Dan C <cdan2154@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi all,
> > > > >
> > > > > I like the idea Usman put forward by the
> time
> > > those
> > > > > guys attempt to memorise
> > > > > 100 labs they will be CCIE's ready without
> > > knowing
> > > > > :) Maybe another way to
> > > > > move forward is for Cisco to have a live
> > > interview
> > > > > before the day of the
> > > > > exam, where you may need to answer few
> basic
> > > > > questions and prove that you
> > > > > have the experience needed to move to the
> next
> > > > > level... who knows....
> > > > > my2cents, Dan
> > > > >
> > > > > On 4/17/07, Usman Ali <usman198@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hello all Gurus ,
> > > > > > I think it is very desperate for the
> people
> > > who
> > > > > are doing CCIE by studying
> > > > > > .
> > > > > > i am working on ccie from last 1 year and
> quit
> > > job
> > > > > only for study and my
> > > > > > target to pass CCIE in three attempts ,
> > > > > > if i pass end of this year what will be
> the
> > > market
> > > > > of ccie after 3 years
> > > > > > when there would be more than 50000 CCIE
> and a
> > > few
> > > > > thousands with good
> > > > > > knowledge ,
> > > > > > it is very disappointing position
> > > > > > is it better to go with IBM certification
> to
> > > earn
> > > > > IBM cert you need just
> > > > > > a few configurations and once a redbook
> study
> > > of
> > > > > the technology , i
> > > > > > passed IBM SAN solution desinger examine 3
> > > years
> > > > > before and it is more
> > > > > > easy than even CCNA and have a good
> market
> > > value
> > > > > too .
> > > > > > can cisco make a huge data base of some
> 100
> > > labs
> > > > > you will get one in
> > > > > > examine or something like this to avoid
> the
> > > fraud
> > > > > .
> > > > > >
> > > > > > bye
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Usman Ali
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Anthony Bonilla wrote:
> > > > > > > On the same note, one of the proctors in
> RTP
> > > was
> > > > > mentioning that they
> > > > > > know
> > > > > > > that lab exams are leaking out being
> that
> > > > > whenever Cisco releases a new
> > > > > > > exam, the passing rate is real low but
> after
> > > two
> > > > > weeks or so, the
> > > > > > passing
> > > > > > > rate shoots up to 90% - go figure!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > When everyone in the room asked why
> Cisco
> > > does
> > > > > not do anything about it,
> > > > > > he
> > > > > > > replied that they can't do anything
> there
> > > > > because China has no NDA or
> > > > > > > something to that affect. Or better
> yet,
> > > Cisco
> > > > > should offering this
> > > > > > exam in
> > > > > > > those countries to begin with but if
> this
> > > > > continues to go on and Cisco
> > > > > > does
> > > > > > > not do anything knowing all this is
> > > happening,
> > > > > you always wonder if they
> > > > > > > themselves are involved as well???
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Just my 2 cents.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On 4/15/07, Darby Weaver
> > > <darbyweaver@yahoo.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >> What everyone on this list in a
> position to
> > > > > hire
> > > > > > >> should do, could do, and ought to do
> with
> > > every
> > > > > single
> > > > > > >> job candidate, CCIE notwithstanding, is
> set
> > > > > them down
> > > > > > >> in front of some gear and let them show
> you
> > > how
> > > > > and
> > > > > > >> why they are the person for the job...
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> 2-3 hours in front of gear and you know
> > > whether
> > > > > you
> > > > > > >> have a keeper or... NOT.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Lots of people are passing the lab
> these
> > > past
> > > > > few
> > > > > > >> years...
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Not all of them are quite qualified to
> work
> > > on
> > > > > a
> > > > > > >> full-fledged network with "issues".
> I'm
> > > sure
> > > > > most of
> > > > > > >> have worked hard and some for some
> years,
> > > but a
> > > > > few
> > > > > > >> squeak by.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> So... if everyone here and everywhere
> else
> > > > > maintains
> > > > > > >> good hiring practices, then I suspect
> that
> > > we
> > > > > will not
> > > > > > >> have this problem of people passing the
> lab
> > > and
> > > > > > >> getting digits by any means necessary.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Not is they know that the cert alone is
> not
> > > a
> > > > > rubber
> > > > > > >> stamp to a CCIE-Level position.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> However with a quick romp to the job
> boards
> > > and
> > > > > seeing
> > > > > > >> postings like:
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> CCNA required and CCIE desired... with
> MCSE
> > > or
> > > > > CNE or
> > > > > > >> Unix experience and oh yes, we want the
> > > > > candidate to
> > > > > > >> install MS SQL or MS Exchange or even
> > > handle
> > > > > desktop
> > > > > > >> support issues and Symantec AV etc...
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Hmmm... What is the point...
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Also be careful to apply to jobs that
> are
> > > of a
> > > > > CCIE
> > > > > > >> caliber as well - once you get the
> grail.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> =====================================
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> One more thing, did anyone ever
> consider
> > > that
> > > > > maybe,
> > > > > > >> just maybe, Cisco is the one putting
> out
> > > the
> > > > > "real
> > > > > > >> CCIE Labs" and if they are I suppose
> the
> > > > > proctors have
> > > > > > >> a lot of fun watching things not quite
> work
> > > for
> > > > > > >> candidates whenever they pass
> through...
> > > > > Here's a
> > > > > > >> little but not quite a lot...
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> That is kind of sadistic... Especially
> > > since
> > > > > they may
> > > > > > >> even have the names of the buyers...
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Hey - how many people come report back
> on
> > > GS
> > > > > and say
> > > > > > >> they cannot figure out what went
> wrong...
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Hah!
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> LOL
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Hmmm...
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Close but no cigar...
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> --- CCIEwnaB <cciewnab@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>> OK smart peeps,
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> I have a friend who is currently
> working
> > > on
> > > > > her
> > > > > > >>> CCNP, and keeps giving me a
> > > > > > >>> hard time for not having passed the
> lab
> > > yet (1
> > > > > > >>> failed attempt under my belt)
> > > > > > >>> but I'm still hitting it hard and will
> be
> > > > > going back
> > > > > > >>> in another 2 moths.
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> Anyway, she's convinced that when she
> > > finishes
> > > > > her
> > > > > > >>> last NP test she'll just
> > > > > > >>> pay the $1200 to the folks who shall
> > > remian
> > > > > nameless
> > > > > > >>> and study the "3 real
> > > > > > >>> CCIE labs" and pass on the first
> attempt."
> > > I
> > > > > agree
> > > > > > >>> with what's been said
> > > > > > >>> here so many times before, that the
> cert
> > > only
> > > > > means
> > > > > > >>> something if you truly
> > > > > > >>> are an expert and have earned it. So
> let's
> > > not
> > > > > get
> > > > > > >>> everyone all wound up.
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> That being said, does anyone have a
> few
> > > > > stories I
> > > > > > >>> can share with her, that
> > > > > > >>> might be helpfull in keeping her on
> the
> > > "HIGH
> > > > > ROAD".
> > > > > > >>> I keep trying to tell
> > > > > > >>> her, she's going to pay $1200 for a
> couple
> > > > > useless
> > > > > > >>> old files and then what,
> > > > > > >>> go to the proctor on test day and say,
> hey
> > > > > this
> > > > > > >>> isn't the test I was
> > > > > > >>> expecting you must have made a
> mistake?
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> I'm sure there are other folks here
> who
> > > have
> > > > > fallen
> > > > > > >>> for it, please share
> > > > > > >>> your experiences so my friend will see
> the
> > > > > light and
> > > > > > >>> not surrender to the
> > > > > > >>> dark side...she knows who she is
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
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