From: Seonghui (Seonghui@vads.com)
Date: Mon Apr 03 2006 - 04:30:51 GMT-3
I agree with Marius. I myself got a bachelor degree (with distinction) and a MBA from Top Universities in Australia. I think degree and MBA are just qualifications that one need to attain in order to secure a good job. When I got my CCIE back in 2003, it changed my life totally. I got good increment and promotion, recognition from my office peers, respect from people in the same industry etc. People remember me becuase of my CCIE, but not my degree or MBA. I am staying in a bigger house and driving a bigger car mainly because of my CCIE (of course partially because of my degree which help me to get a job when I graduated)
In terms of difficulty in passing CCIE, I believe it depends on individuals. You can't compare it with a degree or masters as CCIE is very specialized. You can't compare apple with orange, you can't compare lawyer with doctor, so you can't compare CCIE with a university degree. (but you can compare CCIE with JNCIE, HWCIE etc)
To those who are still preparing for CCIE, please do not be discouraged by this guy (Mr. ????). CCIE is tough but doable....and you will receive your rewards....
Mark Lim, CCIE#12372
-----Original Message-----
From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com]On Behalf Of
Marius Venter
Sent: Monday, April 03, 2006 2:41 PM
To: 'Cisco Engineer'; cisco@groupstudy.com; ccielab@groupstudy.com
Subject: RE: CCIE vs. degree
To ?????
Pity you do not publish your name and number.
As far as I know this site is devoted to encourage and assist "wannabe"
CCIE's like me.
Your mail does not do any justice to a great site.
This mail rather looks like a disgruntled underpaid individual that wants to
discourage and discredit a well respected certification.
Quote: "First, there are lots of low-quality people taking the CCIE lab
exam"
We most probably do not deserve to stand in your shadow and thus I implore
you to move somewhere else so we mere mortals or so called "low-quality
people" can get some of the sunlight as well.
Your comments and views are all to self centered to add no value me.
I do also question you self proclaimed timeline as you worked as a network
administrator, with an engineering degree for six years, yet you did your
double CCIE in two years.
I could have deleted this mail and moved on but rather felt like expressing
my views as well.
Good luck in your new career
Marius Venter
-----Original Message-----
From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
Cisco Engineer
Sent: Monday, April 03, 2006 8:05 AM
To: cisco@groupstudy.com; ccielab@groupstudy.com
Subject: CCIE vs. degree
From time to time I read people trying to compare CCIE with some kind of
degree; I thought that this may be cool to share my own experience. In
general, I agree with what nrf has mentioned throughout the last many years!
But in some points we are different.
Let me share my background first. I got my Bachelor of Applied Science
(Engineering degree) back in 1998. And then I work as a Network Engineer
until last August. During the last six years, I was working full time as a
Network engineer, got my CCXX (I am a CCIE of 7xxx series in RS (second try)
and Security (first try)) and picked up Master of Engineering and MBA (from
top 25 US b-schools) along the way (M.Eng/MBA+CCIE+full time work). Then I
quitted my job last year and return to school full time (yes, some CCIE like
me switched career) to study PhD in operation management (from top-25
b-school). In terms of the Cisco cert, it took me 2 years in the industry
to get from nothing to CCIE. During the last 1 year where I actively study
for CCIE, I spent 3 or 4 hours during weekday and 3 or 4 hours during
weekend to study. (I dont consider myself to be very smart, because I have
seen so many smarter people around me!) Therefore, with my background, I
hope that it makes my point a bit more persuasive.
I know that you may find some of the comparison is like comparing apple to
orange. So please bear with me... (You are free to delete this email if you
dislike my comparison.) Because otherwise, every comparison can be apple to
orange, even comparing CCIE Security to CCIE Voice.
1. Compare CCIE to PhD or even to Master degree (assume it is not from some
no-name school) is ridiculous. According to my own experience, CCIE at most
can be as hard as a second year calculus (yes, just a single second year
course, not even a bachelor degree). The content of CCIE is not difficult
at all, assume that you can master differential equation.
2. The passing rate of CCIE lab exam is much lower than the passing rate of
any courses (PhD, Master, and Bachelor). There are two reasons. First,
there are lots of low-quality people taking the CCIE lab exam, which drag
down the CCIE passing rate. Second, it really takes a longer time to study
for the CCIE lab exam than a second year calculus. It is because first year
calculus has already prepared me for the second year calculus. Also, it is
difficult to have the time, resource to study. And most of all, this is an
expensive and stressful exam! All things being equal (no stress, cheap
exam), I think that for people who can get an A or B in the second year
calculus, I think that he can pass the CCIE lab exam within 3 months after
CCNA level if he can study full time, with all equipment, have all the
material and have a teacher to ask when he/she had problem.
3. CCIE is not god of networking. CCIE is only god of passing CCIE exam and
nothing else. For instances, you don't need to know Poisson process or any
queuing algorithm (you don't call yourself "knowing" FIFO/PQ/WFQ if all you
know is just some simple calculation or configuration) to pass the CCIE
written exam (and for the lab exam, you need to know NOTHING about queuing,
other than how to configure it). I never claim myself good at networking at
all. When I need to configure a network, all I can say is that, "let's see
how far I can go". (I don't mean that I am lack of self-confidence in front
of the customer. I just mean that I really know that there is so many things
that I have absolutely no idea about.) Therefore, expect some CCIE coming
to your company to know how to complete all your requirement is ridiculous.
I can fake to know lots in front of others, but in the bottom of my heart, I
know that I have many limits.
4. As opposed to what nrf once mentioned, PhD is god of their own field.
This is oxymoron if you are PhD but you are not god in your own field.
After you have spent five years in something as narrow as, let say, Virtual
Link of OSPF (not everything about OSPF, but only the virtual link), then
you should be god of Virtual link of OSPF. Therefore, a PhD knows
everything about nothing. To continue my analogy, if you ask a PhD about a
stub OSPF network (nevertheless other routing protocol, or switching, or
security/voice), that PhD may not know. (Contrast to a CCIE, who knows
little bit about several Cisco things)
5. The average salary of a CCIE (assume with the same year of experience) is
higher than the average salary of any degree (except MBA). A history full
professor only makes $40k, and a business professor (on the high end) would
make about $100k. But a CCIE would likely make more than $100k (even though
I made less than $50k when I was a CCIE)
6. As opposed to what nrf once mentioned, being admitted is NOT the most
difficult part of graduating from a top school. It is certainly true that
being admitted to a top school is tough. (Being admited to the bachelor
degree of top school is very hard, and being admited to a top school's PhD
program is almost impossible. You think that the average passing rate of
CCIE lab is 3 times is low? What about the admission rate of top school is
3-10%, with all the applicant are the best of the best in their own school?)
But if you think that you will graduate simply because you are admitted,
you are dead wrong. Of course getting through the once-per-year admission
cycle is very hard. However, the project and the homework will kill you!
Everything else (compare to the intense 8 hours CCIE lab) is walk in park.
7. (Since I am interested to be a professor, let me devote my last point for
those who are currently a professor). Continue from #6. If you think that
graduating from a top PhD school is tough, then how about able to find a
tenure-track job from a top school? And if you think that you are hired by
a top school is tough, how about making the tenure? (my point is, difficult
never ends...)
My post by no means to devalue CCIE certificate. Having a degree would only
get you the ticket for admission. So does having a CCIE certificate. The
rest is still up to you. However, it is true that having a CCIE or having a
degree have a strong relationship to being able to success in your career.
therefore, this is a good and quick tool for the HR to filter out lots of
people. Of course there is outlier, such as Bill Gates. However, do you
think that you are the next Bill Gates? You may think so, but the HR or the
hiring manager may not share your thought! If they don't hire you, then
start another company, get rich, and buy that company (like how AOL
purchased Times)
This is my 2 cents. (That's the beauty about academic. In the networking
world, there is only one way to do stuff (aka Cisco way) but in academia,
you have freedom to express your controversial thought!)
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