From: Hewie (whewetson@gmail.com)
Date: Mon Apr 03 2006 - 04:12:09 GMT-3
Well said
On 4/3/06, Marius Venter <marius@aict.co.za> wrote:
>
> To ?????
>
> Pity you do not publish your name and number.
>
> As far as I know this site is devoted to encourage and assist "wannabe"
> CCIE's like me.
>
> Your mail does not do any justice to a great site.
>
> This mail rather looks like a disgruntled underpaid individual that wants
> to
> discourage and discredit a well respected certification.
>
> Quote: "First, there are lots of low-quality people taking the CCIE lab
> exam"
>
> We most probably do not deserve to stand in your shadow and thus I implore
> you to move somewhere else so we mere mortals or so called "low-quality
> people" can get some of the sunlight as well.
>
> Your comments and views are all to self centered to add no value me.
>
> I do also question you self proclaimed timeline as you worked as a network
> administrator, with an engineering degree for six years, yet you did your
> double CCIE in two years.
>
> I could have deleted this mail and moved on but rather felt like
> expressing
> my views as well.
>
> Good luck in your new career
>
> Marius Venter
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
> Cisco Engineer
> Sent: Monday, April 03, 2006 8:05 AM
> To: cisco@groupstudy.com; ccielab@groupstudy.com
> Subject: CCIE vs. degree
>
> From time to time I read people trying to compare CCIE with some kind of
> degree; I thought that this may be cool to share my own experience. In
> general, I agree with what nrf has mentioned throughout the last many
> years!
>
> But in some points we are different.
>
> Let me share my background first. I got my Bachelor of Applied Science
> (Engineering degree) back in 1998. And then I work as a Network Engineer
> until last August. During the last six years, I was working full time as
> a
> Network engineer, got my CCXX (I am a CCIE of 7xxx series in RS (second
> try)
>
> and Security (first try)) and picked up Master of Engineering and MBA
> (from
> top 25 US b-schools) along the way (M.Eng/MBA+CCIE+full time work). Then
> I
> quitted my job last year and return to school full time (yes, some CCIE
> like
>
> me switched career) to study PhD in operation management (from top-25
> b-school). In terms of the Cisco cert, it took me 2 years in the industry
> to get from nothing to CCIE. During the last 1 year where I actively
> study
> for CCIE, I spent 3 or 4 hours during weekday and 3 or 4 hours during
> weekend to study. (I dont consider myself to be very smart, because I
> have
>
> seen so many smarter people around me!) Therefore, with my background, I
> hope that it makes my point a bit more persuasive.
>
> I know that you may find some of the comparison is like comparing apple to
> orange. So please bear with me... (You are free to delete this email if
> you
>
> dislike my comparison.) Because otherwise, every comparison can be apple
> to
>
> orange, even comparing CCIE Security to CCIE Voice.
>
> 1. Compare CCIE to PhD or even to Master degree (assume it is not from
> some
> no-name school) is ridiculous. According to my own experience, CCIE at
> most
>
> can be as hard as a second year calculus (yes, just a single second year
> course, not even a bachelor degree). The content of CCIE is not difficult
> at all, assume that you can master differential equation.
>
> 2. The passing rate of CCIE lab exam is much lower than the passing rate
> of
> any courses (PhD, Master, and Bachelor). There are two reasons. First,
> there are lots of low-quality people taking the CCIE lab exam, which drag
> down the CCIE passing rate. Second, it really takes a longer time to
> study
> for the CCIE lab exam than a second year calculus. It is because first
> year
>
> calculus has already prepared me for the second year calculus. Also, it
> is
> difficult to have the time, resource to study. And most of all, this is
> an
> expensive and stressful exam! All things being equal (no stress, cheap
> exam), I think that for people who can get an A or B in the second year
> calculus, I think that he can pass the CCIE lab exam within 3 months after
> CCNA level if he can study full time, with all equipment, have all the
> material and have a teacher to ask when he/she had problem.
>
> 3. CCIE is not god of networking. CCIE is only god of passing CCIE exam
> and
>
> nothing else. For instances, you don't need to know Poisson process or
> any
> queuing algorithm (you don't call yourself "knowing" FIFO/PQ/WFQ if all
> you
> know is just some simple calculation or configuration) to pass the CCIE
> written exam (and for the lab exam, you need to know NOTHING about
> queuing,
> other than how to configure it). I never claim myself good at networking
> at
>
> all. When I need to configure a network, all I can say is that, "let's
> see
> how far I can go". (I don't mean that I am lack of self-confidence in
> front
>
> of the customer. I just mean that I really know that there is so many
> things
>
> that I have absolutely no idea about.) Therefore, expect some CCIE coming
> to your company to know how to complete all your requirement is
> ridiculous.
>
> I can fake to know lots in front of others, but in the bottom of my heart,
> I
>
> know that I have many limits.
>
> 4. As opposed to what nrf once mentioned, PhD is god of their own field.
> This is oxymoron if you are PhD but you are not god in your own field.
> After you have spent five years in something as narrow as, let say,
> Virtual
> Link of OSPF (not everything about OSPF, but only the virtual link), then
> you should be god of Virtual link of OSPF. Therefore, a PhD knows
> everything about nothing. To continue my analogy, if you ask a PhD about
> a
> stub OSPF network (nevertheless other routing protocol, or switching, or
> security/voice), that PhD may not know. (Contrast to a CCIE, who knows
> little bit about several Cisco things)
>
> 5. The average salary of a CCIE (assume with the same year of experience)
> is
>
> higher than the average salary of any degree (except MBA). A history full
> professor only makes $40k, and a business professor (on the high end)
> would
> make about $100k. But a CCIE would likely make more than $100k (even
> though
>
> I made less than $50k when I was a CCIE)
>
> 6. As opposed to what nrf once mentioned, being admitted is NOT the most
> difficult part of graduating from a top school. It is certainly true that
> being admitted to a top school is tough. (Being admited to the bachelor
> degree of top school is very hard, and being admited to a top school's PhD
> program is almost impossible. You think that the average passing rate of
> CCIE lab is 3 times is low? What about the admission rate of top school
> is
> 3-10%, with all the applicant are the best of the best in their own
> school?)
>
> But if you think that you will graduate simply because you are admitted,
> you are dead wrong. Of course getting through the once-per-year admission
> cycle is very hard. However, the project and the homework will kill you!
> Everything else (compare to the intense 8 hours CCIE lab) is walk in park.
>
> 7. (Since I am interested to be a professor, let me devote my last point
> for
>
> those who are currently a professor). Continue from #6. If you think
> that
> graduating from a top PhD school is tough, then how about able to find a
> tenure-track job from a top school? And if you think that you are hired
> by
> a top school is tough, how about making the tenure? (my point is,
> difficult
>
> never ends...)
>
> My post by no means to devalue CCIE certificate. Having a degree would
> only
>
> get you the ticket for admission. So does having a CCIE certificate. The
> rest is still up to you. However, it is true that having a CCIE or having
> a
>
> degree have a strong relationship to being able to success in your career.
> therefore, this is a good and quick tool for the HR to filter out lots of
> people. Of course there is outlier, such as Bill Gates. However, do you
> think that you are the next Bill Gates? You may think so, but the HR or
> the
>
> hiring manager may not share your thought! If they don't hire you, then
> start another company, get rich, and buy that company (like how AOL
> purchased Times)
>
> This is my 2 cents. (That's the beauty about academic. In the
> networking
> world, there is only one way to do stuff (aka Cisco way) but in academia,
> you have freedom to express your controversial thought!)
>
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