From: JTheunissen (jtheunissen@dodo.com.au)
Date: Mon Jan 09 2006 - 17:28:18 GMT-3
Guys,
Just though I'd throw in my 2 Cents worth I have worked in IT for
twenty years and have just started the CCIE track. Over that time I have
been made redundant 4 times, 2 Companies I worked for ceased to exist and I
have moved on several times on my own. (16 Different Job in all)
These job changes happen to be good things:
* I have learnt to a wide diverse set of skills which in the
current market guarantees work.
* I have learned the signs of a company struggling and know when to
bail out.
* I know that if my work is not producing cost effective work
either making money or improving the company bottom line then it's only a
temporary position.
* Here is the biggy, I have learned to negotiate with employers.
This is very important.
The way around these employment agency/head hunters is to bypass
them through industry contacts. This is difficult but networking is the key
I have been working for the last 3 years on multiple customers' sites and
all this work has been through direct customer contacts. As you work on a
site I suggest getting to know the contract/consultants which are brought in
from time to time. Or if your working for a consulting company keep in
contact with these guys and use there contacts too. They know where the work
is, learn where the big hiring companies (Not Head Hunter but actual firms)
are and use these contacts to get personal interviews on site. The hiring
company likes this as they avoid paying the contract companies and
potentially if you're a contractor you'll get more income as the contract
firm can't take a cut. Remember also as other people are helping you find
work to also keep a look out for them. If you see a position pop up that's
not for you but you know someone who would be perfect make sure to pass this
info on. Your contacts are more likely to help you out if you're prepared to
referee and pass on job leads to them. Make sure to keep this going even
when you are working and then the whole system is self sustaining.
Jeff
-----Original Message-----
From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
Scott Morris
Sent: Monday, 9 January 2006 6:25 PM
To: 'CCIEin2006'
Cc: 'Imal kalutotage'; 'Suzan S.'; ccielab@groupstudy.com
Subject: RE: SP CCIE
Sometimes that happens. Kinda like not everyone working as a network
engineer is a good one, the same holds true for HR and recruiting folks! :)
Some care, others don't.
The only thing I could offer is to blow it off. if they really can't pull
their heads out of their asses long enough to do something other than
filling in a checkbox to find the RIGHT guy, then you probably don't want to
work for a company like that anyway as that is probably just the tip of the
iceberg.
Scott
_____
From: CCIEin2006 [mailto:ciscocciein2006@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2006 10:28 AM
To: swm@emanon.com
Cc: Imal kalutotage; Suzan S.; ccielab@groupstudy.com
Subject: Re: SP CCIE
Scott I totally hear you regarding headhunter brain damage. Unfortunately
for many positions (unless you know someone on the inside) you have to get
past these gatekeepers just to get that first interview.
Do you have advice on how to explain to headhunters or those bobble-head
hiring managers that although you have havent's worked specifically on VOIP
you know how to lay down a solid foundation to allow VOIP run over it?
I think the problem with a lot of these hiring managers is that they are
looking for specifically x,y,z. I remember past interview we're I tried
explaining to the hiring manager that although I don't experience working on
Checkpoint firewalls, I have several years experience configuring other
flavors of firewalls including PIX firewalls and linksys firewalls,
therefore I should be able to learn Checkpoint very quickly.
Do you know what the hiring managers response to that is?...Next!
And I'm quickly escorted out the door...
On 1/8/06, Scott Morris <swm@emanon.com> wrote:
Well, ok, that had part to do with it.
CEO's of many companies likely don't have a clue what a CCIE is, therefore
you're right, they don't care. However, while a CEO's decision making is
(or should be) financial, there are two sides to it. If you get paid a lot
of money that doesn't always look good. But if you bring in a lot of money,
or save a lot of money for the company, then that makes you valuable. CCIE
or not, a CEO pays attention to that. Or if it's a larger company, then
your director/manager/VP/someone will be looking at those things. I think
you're trying to make layoffs into a black and white decision, which they
are not.
With large company mergers, there may be "redundant" talent. It happens.
But that hardly means that SBC or ATT are the only players around who need
good talent. Nor are they the only ones pondering MPLS.
As for the R&S + Voice concept, you're looking at headhunter brain damage at
its finest. Unfortunately many people have the idea that you may, which is
a CCIE certification doesn't always help you. That translates to "oh look,
many lost their jobs and therefore we can find them cheap", which isn't a
far cry to "can't we up the ante and look for a specialty to create an
unfeasible job market at a pittance pay?".... :)
You're right in that they are both completely different, but. I view it
more like I would expect a neurosurgeon to still be able to make competent
decisions regarding my overall body (hence a NeuroSurgeon is still an MD,
not "just" a brain doctor). Voice is voice, but it still has to run on a
functional network. If you have a crappy network, you're screwed either
way. So having BOTH talents there truly is helpful.
Which to go for? Whatever you want to. Kinda like when we were teenagers
and people were asking "What do you want to do with your life?". Things
haven't changed much, and it's still up to us. There is market to be found.
The more talent and experience you have, the better.
Sorry you're having a bad week though! I hope it gets better!
Scott
_____
From: CCIEin2006 [mailto:ciscocciein2006@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2006 9:05 AM
To: Imal kalutotage
Cc: Scott Morris; Suzan S.; ccielab@groupstudy.com
<mailto:ccielab@groupstudy.com>
Subject: Re: SP CCIE
I think what Scott is saying (without putting words in his mouth) is that if
you're good at what you do, you won't get laid off.
What I'm saying is that corporate CEO's don't give a rats a$$ about your
CCIE certification. When its time to cut head count you will get laid off
even if you have six CCIE's. Sure they may keep you around a few extra weeks
(which may be enough time to find another job as you wait for the impending
doom) but the end result is the same.
I'm sorry to sound cynical, but I have a few good friends (one of them is a
brilliant CCIE) who got laid off when the World-CON $hit hit the fan. Then
just when you thought it was safe to go back into the service provider
waters SBC and ATT merged and another one of my talented buddies got laid
off.
Three reasons why the Service Provider track is a bad idea:
1. Dot-bomb - yup we're still in the recession.
2. World-CON - Still feeling that too.
3. Mergers and acquisitions - service providers are consolidating and buying
each other out - which means laying off redundant staff.
I would suggest taking either the Voice track or the Security track - both
of which are hot items right now. Just do a search on your favorite job site
and see how many hits you get for VOIP.
Which brings me to another gripe - why are companies suddenly expecting you
to become an expert at both Routing/Switching and Voice? Isn't that kind of
like expecting a neurosurgeon to also be an expert dentist? We're talking
about two different specialties here! I mean sure there are some
commonalities in the tracks such as QOS but other than that configuring Call
Manager and Unity is a totally separate skill altogether. I firmly believe
that if try to be the jack of all trades you will be the master of none.
I apologize in advance for my bitchy tone, just having a bad week.
On 1/8/06, Imal kalutotage <imal.kalutotage@gmail.com
<mailto:imal.kalutotage@gmail.com> > wrote:
Hi Scott,
I didnot understand, your mail at all.. sorry for my poor english..
Can you re-phrase it.. Becase I donot want to miss your valuable inputs..
Because I am also interested in SP track, But if no scope or money in there
then I should spend my time on something else..
Pls advice
Cheers
Imal
On 1/8/06, Scott Morris < swm@emanon.com <mailto:swm@emanon.com> > wrote:
I would hope though, that those being laid off are not the necessary talent
needed to keep things running. Or, on the flip side, there's nothing wrong
with consulting in gigs that deal in those kinds of issues.
And "service provider" is WAY beyond the stereotypical telco structure from
years gone by.
There's plenty of work to be had.
Scott
-----Original Message-----
From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
CCIEin2006
Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 2:44 PM
To: Suzan S.
Cc: ccielab@groupstudy.com
Subject: Re: SP CCIE
Why bother? Service providers are still laying people off since the dot-bomb
and World-con days...
On 1/6/06, Suzan S. < <mailto:suzan_ccie@yahoo.com> suzan_ccie@yahoo.com>
wrote:
>
> Dears,
>
> Please anyone took the SP CCIE lab this month? How is the Lab? and is
> there any good preparation workbooks?
>
> Regards
> Suzan
>
>
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